Shooting a third party? (scenario inside)

[hoosierdoc]

My wife had someone attempt to pull her into a car. Things happen REAL fast. I don't think you'd close 40 yards fast enough. I think this may be a good time for warning shots as they will have no idea where the rounds are going, but know they are the target. Probably enough to have them drop the kid. I'm not confident at 30+ yards in the moment that I wouldn't hit my kid.

Fortunately we take our walks on Segways so I'd just chase the car down, let the gyros keep me balanced while I lept onto his hood, removed the windshield wiper, and inserted it through the driver's larynx. If the chick said anything, she gets the passenger wiper.

 

[esrice]

If the need arises for me to pull and fire my firearm, there will be do doubt in my mind that it was the correct action.

With that, I don't tend to get wrapped up in what-ifs because there are too many variables.

Thinking through scenarios before they happen can be an important exercise. The problem with waiting until the moment is that your brain, when given so many variables, will scramble if you don't already have a framework for your actions. Then you'll be left with inaction that could cost you.

There are many examples out there of people who had no doubt, but later realized it was the incorrect action.

There will always be variables, but the "what if" game is essential to a solid mindset.

 

[MontereyC6]

1st question: How liable are you for your 5-year old son's safety if you allow him to get EIGHTY YARDS away from you?

That's a long damned way... at which point he's not under your control...which he'd need to be if he's only 5 years old. ;-)

Negligence upon the parents' part, perhaps?

-J-

It doesn't happen often, but I agree with -J- on this one.

 

[lovemachine]

Heres a question.

At 80 yards, how many of can can hit your target accurately?

At 80 yards, can you hit the Bad Guys, and not your kid?

It could be a good exercise to try out with your pistol next time you're at the range. Hit your target at 80 yards away.

 

[esrice]

It doesn't happen often, but I agree with -J- on this one.

Some of the guys in this thread are linear thinkers to the max!

For those finding it tough to mentally get around my proposed 80 yards, think of the scenario in a slightly different way.

Modification #1: You are walking to meet your wife and son while they have lunch at an outdoor cafe. As you are 80 yards away (or 50 or 20 or whatever! ) from their table you see a car pull up, a woman gets out, and she grabs your kid. Your wife screams and tries to grab him back. Can you legally engage the driver? (<------ see this is the important part )

Modification #2: You are helping out with your son's kindergarten field trip at the local food court. While you are helping one group of kids you look over and see a car stop 80 yards away. A woman gets out and grabs your son. Can you legally engage the driver?

I doubt everyone keeps their kids at arm's length at all times.

 

[stephen87]

Some of the guys in this thread are linear thinkers to the max!

For those finding it tough to mentally get around my proposed 80 yards, think of the scenario in a slightly different way.

Modification #1: You are walking to meet your wife and son while they have lunch at an outdoor cafe. As you are 80 yards away (or 50 or 20 or whatever! ) from their table you see a car pull up, a woman gets out, and she grabs your kid. Your wife screams and tries to grab him back. Can you legally engage the driver? (<------ see this is the important part )

Modification #2: You are helping out with your son's kindergarten field trip at the local food court. While you are helping one group of kids you look over and see a car stop 80 yards away. A woman gets out and grabs your son. Can you legally engage the driver?

I doubt everyone keeps their kids at arm's length at all times.

In my opinion, for the first scenario and for modification #1, yes it would be legal. The driver slowed so that she could grab your kid, therefore he's actively involved. For modification #2, you would not be legal. It's a school sanctioned field trip, which according to IC, it is a felony to possess a firearm. Now I know you're probably thinking it's still going to take a heartless prosecutor to press charges, but he may not for the shooting but most likely will for the possession of a firearm. I would like to see how accurate people are from 80 yards. We should definitely have a few people try it, and for the added element of your kid, draw an outline of a person and color it. If I had the space, I'd try it.

 

[Jack Burton]

For modification #2, you would not be legal. It's a school sanctioned field trip, which according to IC, it is a felony to possess a firearm.

You're conflating two different concepts....legal to engage and legal to carry. They are not the same. A person who is in a situation where they are not carrying legally still has the right of self defense and can engage someone. IANAL, but they can get punished for one and not the other (assuming that it is a good shoot overall.)

 

[thompal]

Modification #2: You are helping out with your son's kindergarten field trip at the local food court. While you are helping one group of kids you look over and see a car stop 80 yards away. A woman gets out and grabs your son. Can you legally engage the driver?

Hey trick question!! NO, you can't legally engage, because you can't legally have your handgun with you if you are helping out a kindergarten field trip!!!!

 

[Jack Burton]

Hey trick question!! NO, you can't legally engage, because you can't legally have your handgun with you if you are helping out a kindergarten field trip!!!!

Here is what you are specifically suggesting.

Fred is carrying at his son's kindergarten graduation. Illegally. We all agree on that.

Sam comes in with a handgun, aiming to kill as many people as he can because his estranged wife refuses to let him see his five year old son.

Fred spots Sam taking aim at a child, and pulls his own handgun, killing Sam and saving who knows how many lives.

Now... if it is true, as you say, that Fred cannot "legally engage" then that means that Fred is now guilty of the murder of Sam since he "illegally engaged" him.

As noted on my previous post... there is a distinction between legally carrying and legally engaging. Two different parts of the law... two different subjects under the law.

 

[Jack Burton]

Judge: Officer, why did you charge the defendant with auto theft and running a stop light.

Officer: Because he stole a car.

Judge: Yes, but there are five sworn witnesses that stated that he stopped at the stop light.

Officer: It make no difference, Judge. He was in the illegal act of stealing a car and that means that there are no possible legal actions he can take with that same car while in that process. Stopping at a stop sign... running a stop sign... driving at the limit or over the limit. It doesn't matter, He is equally guilty of any and all possible traffic violations regardless of his actual actions just because...

 

[esrice]

Hey trick question!! NO, you can't legally engage, because you can't legally have your handgun with you if you are helping out a kindergarten field trip!!!!

As JB pointed out, carrying and engaging are two different things and it wasn't my intent to throw anyone a curve ball by making it a kindergarten.

 

[Hayseed_40]

As JB pointed out, carrying and engaging are two different things and it wasn't my intent to throw anyone a curve ball by making it a kindergarten.

Now you are using a handgun in the commission of a felony.

 

[mike4sigs]

The safety of my family supersedes the law. Having said that, Kidnapping is a forcible felony. The driver and woman in this scenario are valid target IMO.

I think you would be good shooting the driver. They are just as involved in the kidnapping.

i agree i will deal with the legal ramifications after my family is safe

 

[thompal]

Here is what you are specifically suggesting.

Fred is carrying at his son's kindergarten graduation. Illegally. We all agree on that.

Sam comes in with a handgun, aiming to kill as many people as he can because his estranged wife refuses to let him see his five year old son.

Fred spots Sam taking aim at a child, and pulls his own handgun, killing Sam and saving who knows how many lives.

Now... if it is true, as you say, that Fred cannot "legally engage" then that means that Fred is now guilty of the murder of Sam since he "illegally engaged" him.

As noted on my previous post... there is a distinction between legally carrying and legally engaging. Two different parts of the law... two different subjects under the law.

Perhaps, and I understand the distinction. However, I still question whether you can legally use a handgun when you can NOT legally have a handgun.

That being said, this would be a good situation for jury nullification, no matter what the prosecutor charged the parent with.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Heres a question.

At 80 yards, how many of can can hit your target accurately?

At 80 yards, can you hit the Bad Guys, and not your kid?

It could be a good exercise to try out with your pistol next time you're at the range. Hit your target at 80 yards away.

+1, and run a bit to get a quick sweat to try and mimic the adren dump you're bound to have...

 

[BillyT]

While down at lovemywoods' house last weekend our conversation turned to guns and defense (surprise, surprise ).

We started out talking about longer-range pistol engagements and then lovemywoods posed a scenario that neither of us could definitively answer. So we thought we'd pose it to our INGO brethren.

Here's the scenario:

You, your wife, and 5-year-old son are taking a walk in your neighborhood in the early evening time. Your son is further down the sidewalk from you, and his lead increases to about 80 yards ahead.

A large car rumbles past you and your wife and then slows near your son. Suddenly a woman emerges from the passenger side and grabs your son. She begins to drag him back toward her open car door.

You can attempt to close the distance on foot but she will have him in the car before you can get there. You are armed with your EDC pistol.

Now this is where the questions come in:

Can you legally engage the driver of the vehicle to impede the woman's means of departure? Assume that engaging the woman is impractical due to her proximity to your son.

Does that change if there are multiple vehicle occupants? Does that change if the windows are darkly tinted and you cannot ID any occupants?

Thanks in advance for your input!

What's legal and right might not be same answer to your question. But someone grabbing my child and attempting to APPEARANTLY REMOVE HIM from his parent is certainly violating a law as is anyone who assists.

Remember the driver stopped which allowed the crime and further did nothing to prevent it.

Eitherway... Legal or illegal would be of absolutely zero concern. Returning my child home would be. A life time in prison with visits IMO is 10x better than a lifetime of feeling like a coward who might otherwise never see his son and possibly allowed unspeakable evil.

 

[vitamink]

another thing to consider is shooting through automobile glass has a profound effect on bullet trajectory. It's different with every round and many won't penetrate at all.

 

[indytechnerd]

another thing to consider is shooting through automobile glass has a profound effect on bullet trajectory. It's different with every round and many won't penetrate at all.

That's why you carry a 1911. It would blow the driver completely out the front window...maybe rip the roof off the car, too.

 

[SSGSAD]

1st question: How liable are you for your 5-year old son's safety if you allow him to get EIGHTY YARDS away from you?

That's a long damned way... at which point he's not under your control...which he'd need to be if he's only 5 years old. ;-)

Negligence upon the parents' part, perhaps?

-J-

My kid(s), would NEVER be 80 feet, let alone 80 yards away from me ..... because of my knee, I COULD NOT close that distance, I shoot a handgun, at 25 yards, so my kid(s) would be near me at all times .....

 

[SSGSAD]

Know how I can tell you don't yet have a 5-year-old?

Eighty yards is just what I used to give you a frame of reference. It could be 20 yards, could be 50-- however far away is too far to respond instantly on foot, but still close enough to have a visual line of sight and would be reasonable.

I have raised two 5 yr olds, and I DO NOT want to be a horses hiney here, I totally understand, what you are trying to say ..... But FOR ME, the difference between 20 yards, and 80 yards, would be the difference between kidnapped kid, or someone dying .....