Shooting a third party? (scenario inside)

[JohnP82]

If I have a clear shot at the driver, hell yes I take it. The passenger grabbing the child is too close to the child, I am going for the driver to hopefully disable the escape.

When my son and I take walks he is within 10 yds of me at all times.

 

[LeeStreet]

Man, that's a good question. I know what I would do. Is there a lawyer in the INGO house ?

 

[figley]

Eighty yard shot, target zone is about six feet wide, and two feet tall, and includes your five year old son. You are armed with a pistol. Your kid is down range. You are in a residential area, where your backstop consists of other houses, yards, and people.

Tell me you are going to take that shot?

I suggest you practice this technique, by having your kid hold targets for you, while you practice shots at 80yds, with a pistol.

A CCW is a great tool to have, but by no means is it the solution to everything.

 

[esrice]

Eighty yard shot, target zone is about six feet wide, and two feet tall, and includes your five year old son. You are armed with a pistol. Your kid is down range. You are in a residential area, where your backstop consists of other houses, yards, and people.

Again, forget the 80 yards. The question is to the legality of engaging the driver, rather than the person grabbing your child. This could happen at just about any distance.

 

[thompal]

Again, forget the 80 yards. The question is to the legality of engaging the driver, rather than the person grabbing your child. This could happen at just about any distance.

I've got to agree with an earlier post which stated that the driver was equally involved in committing a felony, so he is a fair target as well in order to stop the violent felony.

 

[IndyBeerman]

I'll let the legal system work out the kinks after I hopefully prevented the kidnapping, because there sure would be a mag dump and closing distance as fast as possible all while reloading to reach the child.

Now as far as the legal system, who thinks a prosecutor would really try and file charges on a father/mother trying to prevent a kidnapping of their child?

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Wouldn't think a "concerned citizen" would grab the kid, maybe get out and start talking to him.

 

[Jack Burton]

But, wait for it.... wait for it... WHAT IF It was a concerned citizen worried about your son darting into traffic and, seeing nobody around swept him up for his safety with the intent of calling the police?

A "concerned citizen" who thinks this is the best way to solve an apparent problem can't possible complain about the less-than-perfect response of anyone else involved in the situaiton.

 

[indytechnerd]

While down at lovemywoods' house last weekend our conversation turned to guns and defense (surprise, surprise ).

We started out talking about longer-range pistol engagements and then lovemywoods posed a scenario that neither of us could definitively answer. So we thought we'd pose it to our INGO brethren.

Here's the scenario:

You, your wife, and 5-year-old son are taking a walk in your neighborhood in the early evening time. Your son is further down the sidewalk from you, and his lead increases to about 80 yards ahead.

A large car rumbles past you and your wife and then slows near your son. Suddenly a woman emerges from the passenger side and grabs your son. She begins to drag him back toward her open car door.

You can attempt to close the distance on foot but she will have him in the car before you can get there. You are armed with your EDC pistol.

Now this is where the questions come in:

Can you legally engage the driver of the vehicle to impede the woman's means of departure? Assume that engaging the woman is impractical due to her proximity to your son.

Does that change if there are multiple vehicle occupants? Does that change if the windows are darkly tinted and you cannot ID any occupants?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Ok, you say 80yds, we'll assume the true distance is 40 thanks to spatial distortion due to adrenaline.

1. unload on the car. If the chick is dragging my son from the sidewalk, they're 6-8 feet from the passenger side of the car. I may goof on elevation, but windage shouldn't be far enough off for him to be in the target zone. Hopefullly, this spooks the driver and he bails or the chick drops the boy and they both bail. Whether this happens or not....

2. drop the mag while moving to dead sprint toward the car, reload as fast as possible. I've got about 6 seconds to thwart this before they're gone.

3. halve the distance to the car, drop to a knee. Provided the driver's area is still a viable target, 3 (relatively) controlled rounds through the back glass towards him/her.

(assuming 1-3 are unsuccessful)
4. continue the run toward the car, no more rounds fired until I have an absolute target, whether it's the woman or driver.

I will chase the vehicle on foot, shooting when I get a target until my heart explodes or they are stopped. no hesitation, no remorse, no care for my own skin, legally or otherwise.

To modify one of our oft used phrases....I'd rather be judged by 12 than be one of 6 carrying a 1/2 size casket. Indy don't play like that, not even a little.


afk loading mags and doing wind sprints.

 

[Hayseed_40]

I am surprised ATM did not mention this - IF you were OC'ing, it would have been a deterent and they would not have messed with your kid. On the other hand maybe because you were OC'ing, your kid became the first victim. This whole OC vs CC is a conundrum. What was the original question??

 

[Mosinowner]

I HAVE A WIFE?!!

Ok I would engage the main body of the vechical then engage the tires.

 

[MagicKev]

One thing I havn't seen mentioned yet..and this is my opinion. You said third party, not third person...and yes I know what you meant by it. HOWEVER...in this scenario there is NO third party, they are the same party. THEY are kidnapping your son.

Defend at will.

 

[eldirector]

A) Laws be damned, I'm protecting my child.
B) If the kidnapping was successful, would the driver be charged as well as the woman seen grabbing the child? If so, then both the driver and women are engaged in a forcible felony. It would take a pretty soul-less DA to press charges against you. And they would likely loose the case (IANAL).

 

[71silverbullet]

Drop down on one knee, carefully take aim....and shoot your son in the foot! No one wants to kid nap a bleeding screaming kid, and that'll teach him never to run off like that again

 

[Benny]

Know how I can tell you don't yet have a 5-year-old?

I give up.

 

[Kutnupe14]

There are some questions about this scenario that I have. Is this scenario a actual kidnapping or possibly a mistake? If it is a kidnapping, blast away (at anybody in the vehicle) if you can safely do so.

A child that's 80 yards away from their parents along a sidewalk can certainly be mistaken as being alone (if the parents aren't noticed).
Older people are prone to taking in children that the believe are abandoned, while frantic parents report to police that they have been kidnapped (I've seen it). Last thing you want to do is gun down a hard of hearing, poor sighted grandpa, in a Buick, as his wife tries to, in her mind, do the "right" thing.

So before smoking anybody, it would be best to make sure there's no confusion. Better yet, how about keeping the child closer.

This of course depends on the totality of the circumstances.

 

[sailinon]

There are some questions about this scenario that I have. Is this scenario a actual kidnapping or possibly a mistake? If it is a kidnapping, blast away (at anybody in the vehicle) if you can safely do so.

A child that's 80 yards away from their parents along a sidewalk can certainly be mistaken as being alone (if the parents aren't noticed).
Older people are prone to taking in children that the believe are abandoned, while frantic parents report to police that they have been kidnapped (I've seen it). Last thing you want to do is gun down a hard of hearing, poor sighted grandpa, in a Buick, as his wife tries to, in her mind, do the "right" thing.

So before smoking anybody, it would be best to make sure there's no confusion. Better yet, how about keeping the child closer.

This of course depends on the totality of the circumstances.

You make a good point there. It wouldn't surprise me if older people do try that.

When I first posted my assumption was that I was convinced this was a Predator (meth head, Venezuelan BG, Circus headhunter etc.) and their buddy figuring to collect some ransom - trust me when I say this folks, you'd get nothin' but the ability to "kiss a rabbit between the ears".

My child is 7. He's (fortunately) still at the age that it's cool to hold Dad's hand when you're walking down the street.

Someday he'll be 16, and I'll be the biggest D!ck he's ever met.

Then he'll be 21, and I'll be wiser than he ever really grasped before .

 

[esrice]

This of course depends on the totality of the circumstances.

Absolutely, as does any scenario. For the sake of this particular scenario, let's assume that these aren't do-gooder grandparents out on a Sunday stroll, and its plainly obvious from any onlooker's perspective that this is a kidnapping.

Thanks everyone for the replies-- they fall in line with my thinking as well. As kidnapping is a forcible felony, I believe using deadly force to stop it from happening is justified. As the driver is indeed playing his part in the act, I feel that he's just as culpable, and therefore I would have no legal issue with sending some rounds his way.

 

[Yup!]

I've kind of always operated that the "should I or shouldn't I" question determines my reaction. If you have time to ask it, the answer is "shouldn't I"

If the need arises for me to pull and fire my firearm, there will be do doubt in my mind that it was the correct action.

With that, I don't tend to get wrapped up in what-ifs because there are too many variables.

What if 80 yards away is a public school?
What if the backdrop is a house?
What if the car is a family friend you didn't notice from 80 yards away?

 

[hondatech2k2]

This is exactly why I carry my SCAR-L across my chest!