Self Defense or Murder?

[Denny347]

Sure, that's where I started. And were it me, I'd have handle it differently, 911, pepper spray and concealed just in case... then got the GF/ex-wife in the house until the cops arrived.

Then, Chad comes thru the front door (at one point I thought it sounded like he threatened to enter the house to check for himself, though I could be wrong on that one), then same end result.

KNOWN PERSON might be the reason he retrieved the firearm... Chad definitely exhibited the ability to go to full on rage mode. Was this his MO?

Also, it's been assumed he was at the appointed place and time to retrieve his child. There are indications that might not have been the case... for example, why did Chad already have the sherriff in route to the grandma's house? Was that where he was supposed to pick up the kid at grandma's and arrived at BF's house un-announced?

BF also said "you all aren't even supposed to be here!" Was that in regards to the pick-up was supposed to be elsewhere? Was there a PO/RS?

Much has been made of the mom on the phone while Chad ramped into a rage mode... is it possible she was trying to find out where the child was? Just maybe?

GF's ex arrives at my house and will not leave my property, outweighs my by 100 lbs and 6 inches, arm wrestling him on my literal front steps is nowhere in the equation. Good to be prepared for all scenarios, but THAT would not happen if it were me, my house, my property.

Sadly, child custody is a game. He played right into their game. What he did might be legal but he played the game all wrong. Knowing that optics is part of the game, it needs to be a consideration when devising a response. Even in LE, optics is part of the equation. Phone cameras and now body cams, are making it more obvious. Playing to the camera is a thing now. The general public need to understand that as well. It takes a TON of witness testimony to overcome a single video, if it ever does.

 

[Denny347]

This doesn't meet the "reasonable person" standard. What is the percentage of male adults in the U.S. actually trained in martial arts, who are not involved in a field where hand to hand combat may be reasonably expected?


Yep. And the usual suspects are wasting no time with it...

I know it doesn't. It doesn't even meet the "reasonable officer" standard. However, my beef is that perfectly healthy people who think about their own safety do nothing but buy a gun in order to "keep themselves safe". Then they insert that tool into something that could easily have been resolved another way had they gotten off their lazy butts and learned something. They want personal safety but don't want to work for it. Sure, it may be legal...maybe, but it's a stupid way to go through life.

Yup, because he didn't take the initiative to change the narrative.

 

[Route 45]

I know it doesn't. It doesn't even meet the "reasonable officer" standard. However, my beef is that perfectly healthy people who think about their own safety do nothing but buy a gun in order to "keep themselves safe". Then they insert that tool into something that could easily have been resolved another way had they gotten off their lazy butts and learned something. They want personal safety but don't want to work for it. Sure, it may be legal...maybe, but it's a stupid way to go through life.

I'll preface by saying that I'm retired from the job and don't have to use physical force as part of my job anymore. And quite a few years older than when I had that responsibility. Just a regular gray man now. No radio, no Taser, no pepper spray, no baton, no vest and no backup.

I don't bother with martial arts because the chance that I need to defend myself against some Joe Louis or Jackie Chan wannabe is a heck of a lot lower than having to defend myself against some run-of-the-mill dirtbag with a knife or a gun. You may have noticed in your travels that thugs aren't solving their issues with fists anymore. Certainly lamentable, but reality nonetheless. I won't be the one to bring a judo belt to a gunfight.

I'll use avoidance and de-escalation as my first round self defense tools. I stay in as reasonably good shape as I can. Other than that, I don't have a responsiblity to protect the other guy from the severe consequences of his actions by spending hours training to tie him up in a pretzel, while he is doing his level best to knock me out or kill me. I've seen too many instances of people being knocked out, seriously injured or killed with one or two punches.

 

[OkieGirl]

Couple curious things stick out to me after watching the video several times and various edited versions of it:

1) There is a LOT we don't know or don't see. Absolute max fail on the parts of all four adults in this mix. The 'footage' starts AFTER the starter wife is OUTSIDE the house and deceased man is standing BETWEEN her and the door to the home (very curious why no one already mentioned that). Isn't that "Situational Awareness 101" to make sure you can retreat safely behind a locked door??? How did that happen?
2) This video was released by the ATTORNEY of the deceased man's replacement wife. Wouldn't that indicate the attorney believes this to be important to get out there and detrimental to the homeowner?
3) Replacement wife was recording the whole thing. Wouldn't that indicate there has been problems before? Who videos a normal child exchange? Seems she had A LOT to do to escalate the interaction and perhaps cause the whole moronic chest bumping and posturing mess. Homeowner spoke directly to her numerous times. Why??? Beef was between deceased man and the starter wife but monster truck Barbie needed to run her pie hole? Yep, that always makes things better...
4) Does it bother anyone that some of the furniture on the porch looks like it was turned over or knocked around, where is the footage of Mr. Average Joe going up and ringing the door bell like a civilized person Barbie claims him to be? Why does the starter wife not engage him and yell at him since that seems to be the flavor of the day...why does she cower? That seems odd unless there is an ugly history in there somewhere.
5) THE BIG ONE - WHY FOR THE LOVE OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD, DOES NO ONE CHECK ON THE DECEASED MAN!?!?!?! I can't even begin to wrap my head around that! Not even Barbie asks if he's ok or calls his name or cries out! Seriously, I'm a little freaked out by the complete void of emotion from the remaining three humans here!!! My God! What is in the water in Texas!!!

 

[BigRed]

I'll preface by saying that I'm retired from the job and don't have to use physical force as part of my job anymore. And quite a few years older than when I had that responsibility. Just a regular gray man now. No radio, no Taser, no pepper spray, no baton, no vest and no backup.

I don't bother with martial arts because the chance that I need to defend myself against some Joe Louis or Jackie Chan wannabe is a heck of a lot lower than having to defend myself against some run-of-the-mill dirtbag with a knife or a gun. You may have noticed in your travels that thugs aren't solving their issues with fists anymore. Certainly lamentable, but reality nonetheless. I won't be the one to bring a judo belt to a gunfight.

I'll use avoidance and de-escalation as my first round self defense tools. I stay in as reasonably good shape as I can. Other than that, I don't have a responsiblity to protect the other guy from the severe consequences of his actions by spending hours training to tie him up in a pretzel, while he is doing his level best to knock me out or kill me. I've seen too many instances of people being knocked out, seriously injured or killed with one or two punches.

 

[bwframe]

...THE BIG ONE - WHY FOR THE LOVE OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD, DOES NO ONE CHECK ON THE DECEASED MAN!?!?!?! I can't even begin to wrap my head around that! Not even Barbie asks if he's ok or calls his name or cries out! Seriously, I'm a little freaked out by the complete void of emotion from the remaining three humans here!!!...

Everyone involved probably knew the dead guy was gonna end up shot by someone some time or another anyway. He was a dumbass that needed shot and it likely was too long coming. They all knew that.

The other dumbass though, the "gunfight winner," has ruined his life for the foreseeable future, if not forever.

Forget about the dumbasses, what's the little boy gonna grow into, with all this baggage and all of that surrounding it?

 

[Gunmetalgray]

Can't get past the complete lack of shock from all over the man just shot & lying motionless. First words are to say I got it all on video??!! Feel the love.
The shooter was first to significantly escalate the situation by retrieving the gun. Seemed like it was just BS words up until that point, no real threats. Kids will suffer the most.

 

[KLB]

Branca thinks based upon what we know right now it isn't a good shoot.

Chad Read Shooting: Evidence Supports Manslaughter, Not Justification

Neither self-defense, defense of dwelling, nor defense of property appear to justify this shooting

legalinsurrection.com

I’ll start by saying upfront that this could very well have been a lawful use of deadly defensive force by Carruth—but also that I can’t make that justified call based solely on the two cell phone videos that have been widely circulating. Also, I should note that this particular analysis is based solely on what I can see in those videos—as in any use-of-force case, additional information can result in a large change in analysis and legal outcome.

 

[Leadeye]

For me that's a go back in the house and call 911, cops are trained to deal with those situations and it's their job. You can watch out the window with your rifle and see if he starts beating on your girlfriend or maybe tries to take the door down. Those actions change everything though.

 

[KG1]

For me that's a go back in the house and call 911, cops are trained to deal with those situations and it's their job. You can watch out the window with your rifle and see if he starts beating on your girlfriend or maybe tries to take the door down. Those actions change everything though.

Agreed. There did'nt appear to be threats of violence until a gun was introduced. If you wanted the guy off your property and he did'nt leave right away call 911 and let the cops handle it.

Maybe there is more to it but the only threats I heard prior to the gun being introduced was the deceased threating to take everyone to court.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Branca thinks based upon what we know right now it isn't a good shoot.

Chad Read Shooting: Evidence Supports Manslaughter, Not Justification

Neither self-defense, defense of dwelling, nor defense of property appear to justify this shooting

legalinsurrection.com

Branca thinks that had Carruth shot Read immediately after Read made the left hand grab for the rifle, instead of the warning shot between the feet, it would have been entirely justified.

Also, presumably during, but not after Read grabbed the rifle forcefully enough to fling Carruth off of the patio, and he fired while still impelled by momentum from that event... Carruth was still moving backwards from being flung as he fired. Why? Because there is no evidence that Read advanced (note that had Read taken a step, we wouldn't have seen it as the in house phone video was behind the wall at that moment) on him during that, what, perhaps a second from being in contact to firing?

He's an attorney and one that specializes in self-defense at that... think about what that means... in less than a second to go from "I going to die unless I shoot" to "don't shoot he isn't advancing on me yet again".

Anyone here have that tight of a decision loop? I know I don't.

I'll go back to what I said before... introducing the firearm into the equation to "persuade" compliance was a bad idea... because if it doesn't "persuade", what is your option?

I do think the pepper spray plus concealed carry would have been the perfect combo for this situation. After he failed to comply with the unambiguous demand to get off the property and took the first (of several) step towards the woman, bless him generously.

 

[Alamo]

As for checking on the downed guy…

I don’t know what the people on the scene were thinking, I don’t think thinking was their strong suit. Hard telling how their relationship with guy drove their reactions.

But as a nystander I would not have been rushing up there to see if chad needed any holes plugged.

The first step in first aid is “scene safety.” The military, in tactical combat casualty care, calls it “security”, which may involve hosing down the enemy with everything you’ve got.

But either way the point is the same:

First you make sure the scene is safe enough for you to do something useful. You do not want or need to become a casualty, then you’re adding to the problem instead of helping. If there is still a threat on the scene then you need to do something to mitigate that threat to yourself, of which the easiest and most effective (at least on the civilian side) is “stay away“.

And frankly there were several threats wandering around on that scene. (OK one of the threats was laying face down). I could be the shooters biggest supporter, think he was absolutely right, and mentally I’m on “his side”, but when I show up in the middle of the scene does he know that? Or does he see me as another potential threat, maybe thinks I’m one of Chad’s buddies? Even if he knows me in “normal life” his frame of reference is radically different at the moment and an inbound mover looks dangerous.

Assuming I make it to Chad without rifle guy plugging me, is Chad gonna treat me any better? Just because he’s down doesn’t mean he’s out, which is sort of what we’re hoping for if we want to render first aid. The shot may have caused temporary blood loss to his brain, which falling down would be a form of first aid that restores blood to his brain and starts bringing him around just as we get there.. He was clearly in a rage when he went down, he just got shot, and now he’s coming awake with a partially oxygenated brain, so he may not have crystal clear thinking but he’s probably still really mad. He may interpret somebody putting their hands on him to “help“ and barking questions as an attack. (Been there done that.)

Then there are the wives, and any other hangers on/involved people. They may misinterpret your efforts and launch their own attack on you. Or maybe they interpret your effort correctly and try to stop you from helping “the bad guy.“ Maybe the 15-year-old kid Chad was there to pick up was actually hiding from him in the back bedroom and he comes running out with a weapon because he suddenly realizes “how much he loved his dad.“ Surely everyone on this forum knows of domestic incidents where cops Handcuffing an abusive spouse are attacked by the abused spouse that they were protecting.

And of course after you get through your instant scene analysis and take all the mitigating measures and you’re safely at Chad’s side, do you know what to do next? There’s no point in going to “check on him” unless you have on skills in handling what you’re going to find. if all you really can do is call for help, you can call 911 from a distance much more quickly and easily, you don’t need to stand beside him to do it.

I understand the desire to help someone who needs it, even if he’s an *******, (BTDT), but that is an emotional response. Emotions are important, required actually, they provide the fuel to make us act, but we need to provide some non-emotional brain power and training to how HOW we act, because we are important too. This is where EMTs and firefighters and cops and soldiers come in. they are (supposed to bd) trained in this response. And even they eff it up sometimes, or even do everything “right” but they still get hurt anyway.

 

[Denny347]

As for checking on the downed guy…

I don’t know what the people on the scene were thinking, I don’t think thinking was their strong suit. Hard telling how their relationship with guy drove their reactions.

But as a nystander I would not have been rushing up there to see if chad needed any holes plugged.

The first step in first aid is “scene safety.” The military, in tactical combat casualty care, calls it “security”, which may involve hosing down the enemy with everything you’ve got.

But either way the point is the same:

First you make sure the scene is safe enough for you to do something useful. You do not want or need to become a casualty, then you’re adding to the problem instead of helping. If there is still a threat on the scene then you need to do something to mitigate that threat to yourself, of which the easiest and most effective (at least on the civilian side) is “stay away“.

And frankly there were several threats wandering around on that scene. (OK one of the threats was laying face down). I could be the shooters biggest supporter, think he was absolutely right, and mentally I’m on “his side”, but when I show up in the middle of the scene does he know that? Or does he see me as another potential threat, maybe thinks I’m one of Chad’s buddies? Even if he knows me in “normal life” his frame of reference is radically different at the moment and an inbound mover looks dangerous.

Assuming I make it to Chad without rifle guy plugging me, is Chad gonna treat me any better? Just because he’s down doesn’t mean he’s out, which is sort of what we’re hoping for if we want to render first aid. The shot may have caused temporary blood loss to his brain, which falling down would be a form of first aid that restores blood to his brain and starts bringing him around just as we get there.. He was clearly in a rage when he went down, he just got shot, and now he’s coming awake with a partially oxygenated brain, so he may not have crystal clear thinking but he’s probably still really mad. He may interpret somebody putting their hands on him to “help“ and barking questions as an attack. (Been there done that.)

Then there are the wives, and any other hangers on/involved people. They may misinterpret your efforts and launch their own attack on you. Or maybe they interpret your effort correctly and try to stop you from helping “the bad guy.“ Maybe the 15-year-old kid Chad was there to pick up was actually hiding from him in the back bedroom and he comes running out with a weapon because he suddenly realizes “how much he loved his dad.“ Surely everyone on this forum knows of domestic incidents where cops Handcuffing an abusive spouse are attacked by the abused spouse that they were protecting.

And of course after you get through your instant scene analysis and take all the mitigating measures and you’re safely at Chad’s side, do you know what to do next? There’s no point in going to “check on him” unless you have on skills in handling what you’re going to find. if all you really can do is call for help, you can call 911 from a distance much more quickly and easily, you don’t need to stand beside him to do it.

I understand the desire to help someone who needs it, even if he’s an *******, (BTDT), but that is an emotional response. Emotions are important, required actually, they provide the fuel to make us act, but we need to provide some non-emotional brain power and training to how HOW we act, because we are important too. This is where EMTs and firefighters and cops and soldiers come in. they are (supposed to bd) trained in this response. And even they eff it up sometimes, or even do everything “right” but they still get hurt anyway.

The average citizen should likely consider optics as much as LE when it comes to after the shots go off. It is entirely possible to monitor the scene WHILE administering basic first aid. Are there times when you cannot? Of course. Emotions aside, you need to consider that you are being videoed as well and the narrative will likely be AGAINST the shooter, regardless of self defense claims. Knowing this, immediate first aid goes a LONG way to show compassion to the jury. It's the world we live in now.

 

[Gunmetalgray]

Everyone involved probably knew the dead guy was gonna end up shot by someone some time or another anyway. He was a dumbass that needed shot and it likely was too long coming. They all knew that.

'needed shot'? Really? He was a dad who showed up, on time, to get his kid. How many dads never show up. Poor choices in women perhaps.

 

[ECS686]

The thing that bothers me with this. And I hear or read the same mindset from a few folks is. People so quick to want to jump into pulling the trigger. Like it’s a badge of courage or bragging rights. Just because you might be “legal” do you really want to go there with all the baggage that’s going to come afterwards.

Little bit of Humanity isn’t a sign of weakness

 

[Twangbanger]

Would it change your opinion if
The house was owned by the deceased and ex-wife. Divorce was not final.
Shooter had no legal authority to trespass deceased.
After the shoving, shooter broke off (out of harms way) retrieved a gun, re-entered conflict, and fired on the deceased. There was no struggle for the gun. Deceased used is a lever to push shooter off the porch. Deceased was shot on the porch and was not advancing on the shooter.
Shooter's ex-wife (judge/political) was in the house and a witness at the time.
Could be what was an argument over a legal issues between two parties escalated into a shooting due to a jealous new BF.

More info is needed

Hypothetically - if the "divorce decree" kicked the guy out of his house - he probably has no right to be there, whether he owns it or not.

Sucks but reality.

Saying Little Guy didn't need to involve a weapon is like saying Kyle Rittenhouse didn't need to be in Kenosha that night. If everybody would have stayed in bed that day, nobody would be dead. But if your Aunt had a penis, she'd be your Uncle. Doesn't matter. Interesting, but useless.

Little Guy is plausibly trying to deny Big Guy entry to the abode. Big Guy grabs weapon and gains the advantage, reversing positions and placing himself closer to the house. All that matters is if this can be construed as a threat.

We've been through this before, people. The Prosecutor has been in possession of these videos for almost a month. If no charges have been filed...there's probably a reason for that.

The State is not required to adjudicate all "Stupidity Contests" which are presented to it.

 

[ECS686]

Hypothetically - if the "divorce decree" kicked the guy out of his house - he probably has no right to be there, whether he owns it or not.

Sucks but reality.

Saying Little Guy didn't need to involve a weapon is like saying Kyle Rittenhouse didn't need to be in Kenosha that night. If everybody would have stayed in bed that day, nobody would be dead. But if your Aunt had a penis, she'd be your Uncle. Doesn't matter. Interesting, but useless.

Little Guy is plausibly trying to deny Big Guy entry to the abode. Big Guy grabs weapon and gains the advantage, reversing positions and placing himself closer to the house. All that matters is if this can be construed as a threat.

We've been through this before, people. The Prosecutor has been in possession of these videos for almost a month. If no charges have been filed...there's probably a reason for that.

The State is not required to adjudicate all "Stupidity Contests" which are presented to it.

Respectfully, I can only speak for me. While the guy might be legal the difference is in the Rittenhouse case he was in public surrounded and had to fight his way to a retreat. Dude went into the house and came back out. I get it was his property and there might have been a court order yada yada. And Green shirt probably was a Lugnut but things usually go better when you make a molehill out of a mountain and sounded like all 4 adults should have practiced that

 

[Brambo]

Lot of internet lawyers in here. Not knowing what went on before the video, it seems to me ex husband is pissed, looking for trouble, and found it, thought he could bully his way in. You won't come on my property, get in my face, and expect to walk away unscathed. This is a classic case of letting your mouth overload your ass, with a terrible, but not illegal use of deadly force.

 

[churchmouse]

It might be ruled self-defense when this is all said and done. But he will be put through hell first (maybe justifiably). However, THIS is what happens when you're and idiot and the ONLY tool in your toolbox is a hammer. This is a dispute that should have been "hands-on" rather than guns out. Lean how to fight for crying out loud. Owning/carrying a gun is not a shortcut to self defense. He "appeared" to be a relatively healthy guy. Likely doesn't have a good excuse to not have trained in some martial art, empty hand combat. The shooter is a douche and makes the rest of the gun owners look bad. For that, I have no sympathy for the sh*t storm he is going to have to endure. With training, you will understand that the best way to survive a fight is to avoid a fight. Even if it's a hit to your ego. STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!!!

As this discussion progresses and my life’s experiences come back for reference points with a total bitch ass 1st “X” that weaponized the kids to get her way I see so much fail in this one and am leaning towards Denny’s analogy of the events.

 

[churchmouse]

For me that's a go back in the house and call 911, cops are trained to deal with those situations and it's their job. You can watch out the window with your rifle and see if he starts beating on your girlfriend or maybe tries to take the door down. Those actions change everything though.

Precisely. And if the deceased follows/forces entry then shoot him.