Self Defense or Murder?

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  • jbombelli

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    The dude is almost certainly an ass, but be careful about reading into facial expressions. People do very odd and unexpected things under extreme stress, including laughter. I have personally witnessed shooters swing wildly from crying to laughter, and I think it's there brain trying to catch up to their new reality. We laugh at the absurd, and something this far out of the "normal person" experience is very much absurd. I don't pretend to know all the psychology behind it, but it absolutely is a thing for some folks to go through.

    I get the optic is horrible, and he may really be the cock of the walk he is portrayed as, but just something to consider.
    My wife laughs when she's stressed out. The first time she did it after we started dating, was when I slipped and fell down a flight of icy exterior stairs. I got pretty mad because that actually really hurt and she was laughing. That's when she said that's how she responds to stress.

    It took several years, but after we bought our house she was running across the yard, slipped and fell on her face. I laughed and pointed.

    She also laughed when each of her grandparents passed away.

    If you don't know what's going on it's pretty disconcerting.
     

    DragonGunner

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    Only saw it once, but before the "warning shot" didn't the guy push, shove the guy with the gun? Then the guy fired a shot down and then the guy attacked him trying to get his gun and then a brief struggle and him ending up shot. Why would you go up to someone holding a gun? Why get into a fight with a guy with a gun? Why would you shove a guy with a gun? Why would you after a warning shot then keep attacking? Obviously this guy that got shot didn't watch a single thing on the Rittenhouse trial......he didn't even bring a skateboard for crying out loud.
     

    Ark

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    Only saw it once, but before the "warning shot" didn't the guy push, shove the guy with the gun? Then the guy fired a shot down and then the guy attacked him trying to get his gun and then a brief struggle and him ending up shot. Why would you go up to someone holding a gun? Why get into a fight with a guy with a gun? Why would you shove a guy with a gun? Why would you after a warning shot then keep attacking? Obviously this guy that got shot didn't watch a single thing on the Rittenhouse trial......he didn't even bring a skateboard for crying out loud.
    Looks to me like right before the warning shot he paws at the gun. After the shot he makes a determined attempt to grab it.

    Shooter did a good job creating space and then eliminating the threat. Dude isn't grabbing at your gun because he wants to shine a light down the barrel and offer you money for it.
     

    ECS686

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    Only saw it once, but before the "warning shot" didn't the guy push, shove the guy with the gun? Then the guy fired a shot down and then the guy attacked him trying to get his gun and then a brief struggle and him ending up shot. Why would you go up to someone holding a gun? Why get into a fight with a guy with a gun? Why would you shove a guy with a gun? Why would you after a warning shot then keep attacking? Obviously this guy that got shot didn't watch a single thing on the Rittenhouse trial......he didn't even bring a skateboard for crying out loud.
    Ego! Ego is a terrible thing. Ego over a new Women selling you BS over an Ex is even worse!
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Only saw it once, but before the "warning shot" didn't the guy push, shove the guy with the gun? Then the guy fired a shot down and then the guy attacked him trying to get his gun and then a brief struggle and him ending up shot. Why would you go up to someone holding a gun? Why get into a fight with a guy with a gun? Why would you shove a guy with a gun? Why would you after a warning shot then keep attacking? Obviously this guy that got shot didn't watch a single thing on the Rittenhouse trial......he didn't even bring a skateboard for crying out loud.

    Because monkey dance. Social posturing.
     

    DadSmith

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    Moments before the video I wonder the reason the homeowner brought out the gun. Did he bring it from the start or did something happen maybe threats towards him? Things like that we don't know. If the big guy threatened him or another family member or maybe he threatened to go in the home uninvited?
     

    mark40sw

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    Does the fact that the woman refused to turn over the kid(s) that was ordered by the courts, have any bearing? Is that some variation of kidnapping?

    Many call the dead man foolish. I don't have kids, but I can imagine whoever would mess with not letting the kids go would drive emotions straight up.

    link to video with more of the prior events
     

    DragonGunner

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    Does the fact that the woman refused to turn over the kid(s) that was ordered by the courts, have any bearing? Is that some variation of kidnapping?

    Many call the dead man foolish. I don't have kids, but I can imagine whoever would mess with not letting the kids go would drive emotions straight up.

    link to video with more of the prior events

    Interesting point, and if all true it would still make the foolish dead guy still foolish. All you gotta do is call the cops if your in the right. And if the shooter had refused to hand over the kids I would think charges could be brought against him.....like some have said.....total fail in so many ways.
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    Does the fact that the woman refused to turn over the kid(s) that was ordered by the courts, have any bearing? Is that some variation of kidnapping?

    Many call the dead man foolish. I don't have kids, but I can imagine whoever would mess with not letting the kids go would drive emotions straight up.

    link to video with more of the prior events

    Here is a link to just the video with the exchange prior to the homeowner retrieving his firearm. The first version that the "Karen" in the car released edited out the demand to "Get off my property" before the rifle was retrieved.

    Overall, I agree, but disagree with the commentator on a couple important points.

    1. "None of his business?" No, it was his property/house and his girlfriend, a woman he has a relationship with. Ex-husband and ex-wife relationship is nothingness. Less cordial than a complete stranger. Chad was already told the child wasn't there and wouldn't be back for several hours (3:15 is not 6 o'clock or something to that effect). That was the extent of his legit business for being there, to pick up the child. Child's not there, he had no reason to remain, and was told at least twice to leave the property. At that point he should have left and was legally required to leave (trespass).

    (And, I would add, he was a double-dumb***... a video of him leaving while the boyfriend was coming out with a rifle would have been pure gold in custody court. He turned a "win" into the ultimate "loss". Only next level fools can accomplish that)

    2. "It's her fault because she was pushing his buttons intentionally and she should be charged." Maybe intentional, maybe not... we don't know. (FWIW, my-ex used the kids as pawns during/after our divorce trying to provoke me, so I get it). BUT, Chad was a dumb*** to take the bait. And he took it hook, line and sinker. And, the commentator said he wasn't in her face. What, wait? Men, take a look at that interaction and say it was not an escalating physical and verbal intimidation 100% on Chad's part. He is at least three times her size Had she not retreated, step-for-step, he would have been nose-to-nose with her... raging.

    (lot's of misogny in the vloggers comments. Yes, some women are top tier *****es. Maybe she was... but some guys are top tier ***holes... Chad showed those colors to the max)

    My take is that Chad was a big guy who was used to getting his way by physically and verbally intimidating people. His reaction to the home-owner with the gun - that he would take it away and use it on him - tells me that in his relationship with his ex, if it wasn't physically abusive, physical abuse was threatened. I just guessing, but I'd say probably ditto for the boyfriend, I'm guessing Chad had threatened to kick his *** on more than one occasion, a guy he looked to outsize by a 100 lbs and 6 inches. I go through this last part in asking "why retrieve a firearm?" 100% legal, but was it called for? I'm gonna venture, based on Chad's 'roid raging this time, it wasn't an isolated incident, so I'm going to say yeah.

    So, unless something else comes out that it was all a setup or some such, I'm saying 100% legal shoot. I'm reserved on whether it's a "good shoot", but leaning heavily towards it based on Chad's rage behavior and guessing it's not the first time.

    And, as far as the widow wife... my guess is she's trying for the kid/kids because that's who Chad left his money to.

    One thing about ole Chad, he sure knew how to pick 'em. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited:

    SheepDog4Life

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    Interesting point, and if all true it would still make the foolish dead guy still foolish. All you gotta do is call the cops if your in the right. And if the shooter had refused to hand over the kids I would think charges could be brought against him.....like some have said.....total fail in so many ways.
    Kid wasn't there... Chad even said so that 6 o'clock is not 3:15, where is he, I'll go get him myself.
     

    Denny347

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    It might be ruled self-defense when this is all said and done. But he will be put through hell first (maybe justifiably). However, THIS is what happens when you're and idiot and the ONLY tool in your toolbox is a hammer. This is a dispute that should have been "hands-on" rather than guns out. Lean how to fight for crying out loud. Owning/carrying a gun is not a shortcut to self defense. He "appeared" to be a relatively healthy guy. Likely doesn't have a good excuse to not have trained in some martial art, empty hand combat. The shooter is a douche and makes the rest of the gun owners look bad. For that, I have no sympathy for the sh*t storm he is going to have to endure. With training, you will understand that the best way to survive a fight is to avoid a fight. Even if it's a hit to your ego. STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!!!
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    Moments before the video I wonder the reason the homeowner brought out the gun. Did he bring it from the start or did something happen maybe threats towards him? Things like that we don't know. If the big guy threatened him or another family member or maybe he threatened to go in the home uninvited?
    The first video the woman released "conveniently" edited out what happened immediately prior. The longer version below shows that before retrieving the rifle, the homeowner/BF commanded "Get off my property!" which Chad hears, turns to him, says something inaudible but stays and starts back into the woman. Homeowner then goes into the house to retrieve the rifle, comes out and commands "Leave, right now!"

    Warning: cursing
     

    Denny347

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    The first video the woman released "conveniently" edited out what happened immediately prior. The longer version below shows that before retrieving the rifle, the homeowner/BF commanded "Get off my property!" which Chad hears, turns to him, says something inaudible but stays and starts back into the woman. Homeowner then goes into the house to retrieve the rifle, comes out and commands "Leave, right now!"

    Warning: cursing

    Still a stupid (albeit possibly legal) reason to introduce a gun into this situation. A KNOWN person regarding child custody refuses to leave your porch/yard, call 911. He's not a burglar. Not an unknown threat entering your house.
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    Still a stupid (albeit possibly legal) reason to introduce a gun into this situation. A KNOWN person regarding child custody refuses to leave your porch/yard, call 911. He's not a burglar. Not an unknown threat entering your house.
    Sure, that's where I started. And were it me, I'd have handle it differently, 911, pepper spray and concealed just in case... then got the GF/ex-wife in the house until the cops arrived.

    Then, Chad comes thru the front door (at one point I thought it sounded like he threatened to enter the house to check for himself, though I could be wrong on that one), then same end result.

    KNOWN PERSON might be the reason he retrieved the firearm... Chad definitely exhibited the ability to go to full on rage mode. Was this his MO?

    Also, it's been assumed he was at the appointed place and time to retrieve his child. There are indications that might not have been the case... for example, why did Chad already have the sherriff in route to the grandma's house? Was that where he was supposed to pick up the kid at grandma's and arrived at BF's house un-announced?

    BF also said "you all aren't even supposed to be here!" Was that in regards to the pick-up was supposed to be elsewhere? Was there a PO/RS?

    Much has been made of the mom on the phone while Chad ramped into a rage mode... is it possible she was trying to find out where the child was? Just maybe?

    GF's ex arrives at my house and will not leave my property, outweighs my by 100 lbs and 6 inches, arm wrestling him on my literal front steps is nowhere in the equation. Good to be prepared for all scenarios, but THAT would not happen if it were me, my house, my property.
     

    NyleRN

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    It might be ruled self-defense when this is all said and done. But he will be put through hell first (maybe justifiably). However, THIS is what happens when you're and idiot and the ONLY tool in your toolbox is a hammer. This is a dispute that should have been "hands-on" rather than guns out. Lean how to fight for crying out loud. Owning/carrying a gun is not a shortcut to self defense. He "appeared" to be a relatively healthy guy. Likely doesn't have a good excuse to not have trained in some martial art, empty hand combat. The shooter is a douche and makes the rest of the gun owners look bad. For that, I have no sympathy for the sh*t storm he is going to have to endure. With training, you will understand that the best way to survive a fight is to avoid a fight. Even if it's a hit to your ego. STUPID STUPID STUPID!!!!!
    Agreed. Both guys are idiots/morons. Chad got what he had coming based on idiocracy. And Kyle is a scumbag for cheating on his wife.
     

    Route 45

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    He "appeared" to be a relatively healthy guy. Likely doesn't have a good excuse to not have trained in some martial art, empty hand combat.
    This doesn't meet the "reasonable person" standard. What is the percentage of male adults in the U.S. actually trained in martial arts, who are not involved in a field where hand to hand combat may be reasonably expected?

    The shooter is a douche and makes the rest of the gun owners look bad.
    Yep. And the usual suspects are wasting no time with it...

     

    indyjs

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    Would it change your opinion if
    The house was owned by the deceased and ex-wife. Divorce was not final.
    Shooter had no legal authority to trespass deceased.
    After the shoving, shooter broke off (out of harms way) retrieved a gun, re-entered conflict, and fired on the deceased. There was no struggle for the gun. Deceased used is a lever to push shooter off the porch. Deceased was shot on the porch and was not advancing on the shooter.
    Shooter's ex-wife (judge/political) was in the house and a witness at the time.
    Could be what was an argument over a legal issues between two parties escalated into a shooting due to a jealous new BF.

    More info is needed
     

    DragonGunner

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    Would it change your opinion if
    The house was owned by the deceased and ex-wife. Divorce was not final.
    Shooter had no legal authority to trespass deceased.
    After the shoving, shooter broke off (out of harms way) retrieved a gun, re-entered conflict, and fired on the deceased. There was no struggle for the gun. Deceased used is a lever to push shooter off the porch. Deceased was shot on the porch and was not advancing on the shooter.
    Shooter's ex-wife (judge/political) was in the house and a witness at the time.
    Could be what was an argument over a legal issues between two parties escalated into a shooting due to a jealous new BF.

    More info is needed
    Too many "ifs" and some of what you said is fabrication. You make it sound like he retrieved the gun and shot unprovoked, wasn't pushed and shove, wasn't told I'm taking your gun, didn't fire a warning shot, wasn't shoved again and went after him even after a warning shot.....are we watching the same video? I agree more info needed but that about it. I also am not playing UFC on my property or anywhere if I feel threatened, I thought that way when I was 13 and watching Bruce Lee movies....lol.
     

    indyjs

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    If you were in fear of your life and retrieved a rifle, why would you hold in sideways and butt up against the opponent. Smaller shooter was frustrated and figured he could get away with the shooting. If the deceased was still owner of the property, then aggravated assault and he was in the self defense position. In any regards, if he wanted that gun, he could have easily taken it. Shooter and ex wife need prison time
     

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