Secession: an academic discussion

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  • spencer rifle

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    The US Civil War did not have even close to 100% agreement within each state as to which side to join. Indiana had a fair amount of “copperheads” who were sympathetic to the Confederacy. Some of my wife’s distant relatives rode North from Tennessee and joined the US Tennessee mounted Infantry.
    The Union army had at least 1 regiment from every Confederate state. That did not work in reverse. Having read all of Kurt Schlichter's recent novels about splitting up, I am not a fan. Everything gets worse and everyone gets poorer.

    There were lots of votes against secession at the CW-era conventions. I seem to remember that "faithless electors" played a big part, in that they were sent to vote against secession and ended up voting for it.
     
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    Ok, so a state secedes. What happens to all the federal land and military equipment within those borders. I can say with 100% certainty, the fed aint giving that stuff away.
    The land on which "needful buildings" lie (as specified in the Constitution) can be bought back from the feds. The federal government has never had the constitutional authority to hold the vast acres of wilderness that they claim so this is a non-issue. The states can buy the military equipment or let the government reclaim it.
     

    spec4

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    How do we do it geographically? If we could solve how to deal with the military, the budget, social security, medicare, etc. I would gladly relocate. It would be great not to have the likes of the Clintons, AOC, Pelosi, Schumer, etc. to not have the ability to affect my way of life and freedoms.

    We would need a rule making it very difficult to bounce from the communist states to the free states.

    Sadly, if we held the political class to what principles this country was founded on, especially the Constitution, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
     

    JettaKnight

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    The Soviet Union managed to break up without violence and they had nukes and bases everywhere. I haven’t really studied how it was done. And obviously there’s been trouble between Russia and both Georgia and Ukraine afterwards.
    The Soviet Union was a bunch of disparate countries with people speaking different languages who were never one people; there was never parity, never unity. Interestingly, a lot of it stemmed from the loosing of restrictions of the USSR; the people revolted after they gained freedom.

    The number of casualties involved was low, but there were points in each state where it was touch and go. I've been to the three media towers in each of the Baltic capitols where the resistance took over and held them - they had one hand on the fire suppression button - ready to asphyxiate themselves to prevent the Soviets from regaining control.



    If America splits, it's not geographic, and probably not down the middle of party lines, but more like a three way - extreme left, extreme right, then the great majority that thinks those two are loonies.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    The land on which "needful buildings" lie (as specified in the Constitution) can be bought back from the feds. The federal government has never had the constitutional authority to hold the vast acres of wilderness that they claim so this is a non-issue. The states can buy the military equipment or let the government reclaim it.

    This may have been true at one time, but the moment a state recognized that authority over those areas, in the form of payment from the feds for it's administration, they've signed on to that contract.
     

    Tombs

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    Ok, so a state secedes. What happens to all the federal land and military equipment within those borders. I can say with 100% certainty, the fed aint giving that stuff away.
    Feel free to explain why you can't have secession while all of that stuff remains largely irrelevant.

    The goal is to get out from the jurisdiction of the federal government's overreach, not to go to war with America.
     

    JettaKnight

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    As to those missiles...
    I visited a missile base in Lithuania - pretty cool installation, four silos and deep command bunker in the middle of the woods. 5 stars.

    A lot of those installations were already decommissioned before the breakup as the result of arms treaties. Anything mobile was easily moved back to Russia.


    And after the breakup, those states that still aligned with Russia (e.g. Ukraine) got what was left. (see the Lisbon Protocol)

    Here's two articles on what happened:
    https://www.rbth.com/history/330532-only-russia-nuclear-weapons
    https://engineering.stanford.edu/ma...uclear-arsenal-stayed-secure-nation-collapsed

    Talking about this makes me want to watch Spies Like Us.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    How can any contract sidestep the Constitution?
    It doesn't really need be a contract. Agree with it or not, there are a number of provisions within the Constitution that have been sidestepped. And while I can't speak specifically on the specifics of land management, traditionally once something has been accepted that contradicts the Constitution, it is rarely changed back. I think you'd have one hell of an issue if you abided, and even participated in something, unconstitutional, and then later, when it benefitted you, tried to have revert it back to the "right" way of doing things.
     
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    It doesn't really need be a contract. Agree with it or not, there are a number of provisions within the Constitution that have been sidestepped. And while I can't speak specifically on the specifics of land management, traditionally once something has been accepted that contradicts the Constitution, it is rarely changed back. I think you'd have one hell of an issue if you abided, and even participated in something, unconstitutional, and then later, when it benefitted you, tried to have revert it back to the "right" way of doing things.
    The states that have been complicit in this have done so because if they reclaim the millions of acres hijacked by the feds they will then have responsibility for their upkeep. Hardly a reason to stand by and do nothing to restore these lands for the use and enjoyment of their citizens.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    The states that have been complicit in this have done so because if they reclaim the millions of acres hijacked by the feds they will then have responsibility for their upkeep. Hardly a reason to stand by and do nothing to restore these lands for the use and enjoyment of their citizens.
    Exactly, that's why I think it's problematic for them to simply say "this land is ours now." More than likely, they will have to pay something for it, in order to get the feds to relinquish their claim. And that brings up another interesting point. What about money?
     
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    Exactly, that's why I think it's problematic for them to simply say "this land is ours now." More than likely, they will have to pay something for it, in order to get the feds to relinquish their claim. And that brings up another interesting point. What about money?
    They don't have to say "this land is ours now." It never stopped being theirs.
     

    CampingJosh

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    They don't have to say "this land is ours now." It never stopped being theirs.
    For a lot of the western states where the majority of federal land is, it never was the states' land. The agreement that the land remain federal land was part of the agreements in admitting the new states.
     

    Ark

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    I don't for a second believe the federal government would permit entire states worth of US natural resources to simply exit the union. The breadbasket, the Dakota oil fields, etc. The feds will simply retake them by force and kill however many people necessary. Peaceful secession is not on the table. States will never be allowed to take their stuff and walk away.
     

    Wolfhound

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    I don't for a second believe the federal government would permit entire states worth of US natural resources to simply exit the union. The breadbasket, the Dakota oil fields, etc. The feds will simply retake them by force and kill however many people necessary. Peaceful secession is not on the table. States will never be allowed to take their stuff and walk away.
    The same federal government that gave back the Panama Canal? Gave back bases in Asia and the Middle East? The same federal government who's capital was occupied by a few dozen unarmed protesters at least one of which was dressed like the village people? That federal government?

    I have to say, they haven't done anything to impress me lately.
     

    Ark

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    The same federal government that gave back the Panama Canal? Gave back bases in Asia and the Middle East? The same federal government who's capital was occupied by a few dozen unarmed protesters at least one of which was dressed like the village people? That federal government?
    The same federal government that put Georgia to the torch in order to break the back of the Confederacy and reconquer those states and their resources for the Union?
     

    Wolfhound

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    The same federal government that put Georgia to the torch in order to break the back of the Confederacy and reconquer those states and their resources for the Union?
    That one retired about a hundred years ago.

    Edit: Point taken though.
     
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