Red dots?! We don' need no steenkeen red dots!

[Dean C.]

At first I would lose the dot and have no idea which way it went. I am progressively getting better. At some point I could see where it went and then I became able to control it so it goes straight up and back down. Now that I switched from the RMR to the SRO, I am close to being able to keep it in my view throughout the shot.

I have only had a couple range sessions with the SRO but I think it will come quickly that I keep the dot in the glass.

The DPP on my Staccato is large enough to track the dot totally through recoil for me, now my P365x with 507k is another story all together (though the circle dot does help with acquisition)

 

[Scott58]

Every rifle I own has a red dot save one which has a nice scope. Handguns is the exact opposite. With the exception of a Beeman P17 pellet gun (which is really fun to shoot with a red dot). All my other pistols and revolvers are open sights. Gonna keep it that way.

 

[700 LTR 223]

Me too. That's why I'm so surprised at this new method. I had no idea this is possible.

I shot NRA bullseye for years..Master Class with iron sights. If it weren't for red dots I'd be unable to shoot pistol. That's it for me.
IF (that's a big IF) we ever got in a firefight, and I was on your side, you'd be damned glad I had a dot....

A real achievement in pistol marksmanship to be a master in bullseye. Probably not very many unorthodox aiming methods that result in shooting a score in the 90s at 50 yards , especially ONE HANDED. Post up an NRA pistol target out at 50 yards or even 25 yards and see what scores you can shoot NOT seeing the sights clearly.

These days I'm like G192127 , I have to use a red dot for target shooting. But the red dots allow me to shoot as well or better than I did when I had 20/20 vision.

 

[hairydad300]

I keep saying I'm going to try that and then I forget. I'll try to remember next time I go. I can stick a paster over it.

Used painters tape…

 

[2AOK]

Ima gonna buck the trend here a little.

DISCLAIMER - I'm a novice shooter, no formal training other an innate skill that I can always get shots on the target with a rare flyer outside but still on the paper at 5-7 yards easily.

I've tried a buddies sig (can't remember if a P365 or P320) with a red dot. I had to really concentrate to get the dot on target in a timely manner but same result as just stock sites.

Then I tried a laser. WOW, nothing could be more simple and natural to me. All shots in the 7-10 rings of the target.

Take it for what it's worth and that's not much.

PROS: fast and easy acquisition, even in low light, POI very close to the laser point. No milling of the slide to mount necessary.
CONS: No idea if it's any more difficult to get a holster with provision for the laser but it seems less bulky than a red dot for EDC.

Not a lot of difference in price for a decent laser vs. RDS

Now I goota get me one and see what holsters will fit with an under frame rail or trigger guard mounted laser.

EDIT: A laser exaggerates your shakiness but I find it a good thing, the instantanious visual feedback lets me practice relaxing and I eventually calm down and compensate my grip, stance and site-in to correct bad habits.

Bottom line: I'd much rather have a laser than a RDS. I'm not sure what problem an RDS is supposed to solve vs a laser but I'm sure someone with much more experience than I will let me know.

I think that's a valid point of view.

I'm about to order a dry-fire laser "thing" that's basically a snap cap with a momentary laser. It helps avoid potential damage to the striker / firing pin and confirms that you're pointing where you think you're pointing. Seems like an excellent tool for developing point shooting skills. To be clear, I'm talking about typical defensive shooting distances.

A laser mounted on your pistol provides the same advantage, AND...enables you to shoot from otherwise very difficult positions/poses. For instance, in a CCW defensive situation you could fire upon the assailant while your pistol is still very much concealed. No need to align a red dot or iron sights with your eyes. Or you could shoot around a corner exposing nothing but your shooting hand. That is, if you can see your laser dot. Think about ways to accomplish that...

Kudos for thinking independently

 

[2AOK]

I never had that deeply ingrained front sight focus, which is why I think I picked up the dot easier.

AHA! That makes sense.

 

[2AOK]

...In a generation, folks will start with dots and wonder what those steel protrusions are on the front and rear of the firearm.

Ha! I think you're right, unless the world goes TOTALLY down the drain and we're all back to smooth-bore muskets or whatever else we can cobble together in what's left of our garages.

Side benefit: I think a lot more new shooters will enjoy shooting more if they use red dots. It's affirming to have early success and makes it more fun all around.

On the other hand, I wonder if new shooters under those conditions will develop an enduring interest in firearms.

If a new shooter can hit what s/he's aiming at every time, right from the start, why take any of it seriously? Just buy one standard, ubiquitous generi-gun (with optics) and you're good. Nothing more to learn, and your pistol and its use would be no more interesting than using your Dewalt cordless drill.

I know. It's unsettling, but worth considering.

 

[2AOK]

According to the college kids I know, "We" is perfectly acceptable when speaking of ones singular self.

Wow, typing that gave me an epiphany... Maybe that's why they think "We the People..." only applies to them/they. I have a whole new understanding of the origins of the growing sense of entitlement and selfishness, and disregard for the liberty of others!

HA! I think you're RIGHT.

In addition to your epiphany, I have other ideas about why so many young people (Americans and others) are so spoiled and selfish, and apparently unconscious in many ways. Ah but I don't like typing, and that subject would grow into an essay.

 

[cedartop]

On the other hand, I wonder if new shooters under those conditions will develop an enduring interest in firearms.

If a new shooter can hit what s/he's aiming at every time, right from the start, why take any of it seriously? Just buy one standard, ubiquitous generi-gun (with optics) and you're good. Nothing more to learn, and your pistol and its use would be no more interesting than using your Dewalt cordless drill.

I know. It's unsettling, but worth considering.

Ok, not trying to be a jerk, although some would say I don't have to try it just comes naturally, but that is just silly. The sighting system is merely one component of shooting and some would argue not the major one. I have worked with a lot of new shooters with irons and with dots and none were immediately so good that it was boring for them. There are many reasons people lose interest, but I highly doubt being so good right off the bat is going to be one of them. The biggest problem for most people is that they move the gun while they are taking the shot, there are a lot of reasons for this and that could be an argument for another time, but whether you are using irons, or dots, or lasers, or "point shooting" that movement will have a dramatic affect on accuracy.

Now what you could be right about is that people would think they are "good enough", but that is already a thing . As we know good is a sliding scale and most people won't ever even know what really good is.

 

[Dean C.]

So who else is shooting their dot equipted pistols this weekend ? it's a little cold for sporting clays and I want some trigger time so off to the indoor range.

 

[cedartop]

So who else is shooting their dot equipted pistols this weekend ? it's a little cold for sporting clays and I want some trigger time so off to the indoor range.

I typically shoot every weekend though starting this time of year through early March that becomes somewhat weather dependent. I am going to try and go out tomorrow in the hope of less wind.

 

[NHT3]

My range membership is weekday only so no weekend shooting for me. I'll put a few down range a couple of days next week.

 

[2AOK]

I have worked with a lot of new shooters with irons and with dots and none were immediately so good that it was boring for them. There are many reasons people lose interest, but I highly doubt being so good right off the bat is going to be one of them.

Point taken, but I want to be clear. I was responding to gregkl's post wherein he was discussing a future generation. The point I made was that if everyone can shoot easily in the future, due to ubiquitous "hologram optics" (no doubt), no one (in that future time) will care much about guns and shooting. If no unique skills are needed, who cares? It's like nobody cares about your "mobile phone" now, but they sure did back when all we had were land lines.

And beyond that, as sighting systems improve people will be less and less able to avoid being shot. Consider the amazingly accurate artillery sighting systems in use in Ukraine. It's absolutely devastating. On a brighter note, when everybody can pretty much shoot without missing, violent crime could become a thing of the past. Woohoo.

As my Dad used to say, "An armed society is a polite society."

The biggest problem for most people is that they move the gun while they are taking the shot, there are a lot of reasons for this and that could be an argument for another time, but whether you are using irons, or dots, or lasers, or "point shooting" that movement will have a dramatic affect on accuracy.

Agreed. I think lack of trigger control—mostly attempts at compensating for recoil—is the biggest challenge for new shooters.

Now what you could be right about is that people would think they are "good enough", but that is already a thing . As we know good is a sliding scale and most people won't ever even know what really good is.

Again, agreed, and I'm speaking from experience. Ha.

 

[gregkl]

So who else is shooting their dot equipted pistols this weekend ? it's a little cold for sporting clays and I want some trigger time so off to the indoor range.

I'm planning on going in the morning after I drop my wife off at the airport.

Probably only be about 20 degrees so I may not last long.

And I will most likely pass on taping the dot for tomorrow. I loaded my mags tonight to run my drills. At least I won't have to do that in the cold.

 

[mousegun87]

I just want to pass this along, in hopes that your results will be as mind-blowing as mine are.

My Dad taught me to shoot, and his Marine Corps training emphasized focus on the front sight. So that's what he taught my brothers and me. But arguing recently against pistol red dots here on INGO prompted me to look THROUGH the Romeo5 on my rifle. To look at the target, and not the dot. I was amazed at how well two-eyes-open works, and it taught me a valuable lesson. Up to that point, I had been squinting the left eye and looking at the dot with my right eye, doing as I was instructed long ago, "Focus on the front sight and let your target be a blur."

Once I truly experienced the two-eyes-open phenomenon, where the red dot superimposed on the target, things changed for the better. Prior to that, I had tried many times to see my pistol front sight with both eyes open. NO DICE. I'm right-eye dominant, but opening the left eye and focusing on the front sight always shifted the dominant view to the left side of the pistol slide. No getting around it.

Based on the rifle red-dot phenomenon, I tried opening both eyes while looking at the pistol target. Not the sights, the target. Amazingly, the front+rear open pistol sights superimpose on the target! Just like a red dot, but without a red-dot! My iron sights now function like a red dot, but without the expense, learning curve, pistol mods, etc.

Red dots?! We don' need no steenkeen red dots!

(link = Treasure of the Sierra Madre)

I need rds when my eyes start requiring bifocal glasses. With the rds I only need my distance glasses.

 

[Hookeye]

Am super right eye dominant.
Have shot everything both eyes open. Never knew different.
Can move my right eye left and my brain doesn't like it, the right vision fuzzed making my left eye become dominant. My left eye hardly moves left (born that way).
Hence the screen name LOL

I can be on the stock, looking through the scope, and "click" to my left and look outside the scope without moving on the rifle. Pretty neat, again, never knew different growing up.

Now that Im pushing 60, such "clicking" brings on a light headache after a few tries. Never used to. Sucks getting old.

Anyway, on that covered red dot and still see it w both eyes open..........yeah, the Armson OEG doesn't work for me.

I always picked my aiming point and then put my sight on it. Has worked well enough all these yrs.
Going to a reddot, was minimal time to trust the dot and not try to peek around it. There its space relationship, not definitive point. Just different, but no big deal, if you accept what it is.

 

[Hookeye]

Funny, was just on EGW site looking at Ruger SBH pic rails, thinking maybe RDS a stainless rig for hunting. Got a dragoon stainless frame sitting here, and the 5 1/2" rigs come with rounded.........
might as well buy a rig to use the frame. Seems legit reason LOL

 

[Skip]

I just want to pass this along, in hopes that your results will be as mind-blowing as mine are.

My Dad taught me to shoot, and his Marine Corps training emphasized focus on the front sight. So that's what he taught my brothers and me. But arguing recently against pistol red dots here on INGO prompted me to look THROUGH the Romeo5 on my rifle. To look at the target, and not the dot. I was amazed at how well two-eyes-open works, and it taught me a valuable lesson. Up to that point, I had been squinting the left eye and looking at the dot with my right eye, doing as I was instructed long ago, "Focus on the front sight and let your target be a blur."

Once I truly experienced the two-eyes-open phenomenon, where the red dot superimposed on the target, things changed for the better. Prior to that, I had tried many times to see my pistol front sight with both eyes open. NO DICE. I'm right-eye dominant, but opening the left eye and focusing on the front sight always shifted the dominant view to the left side of the pistol slide. No getting around it.

Based on the rifle red-dot phenomenon, I tried opening both eyes while looking at the pistol target. Not the sights, the target. Amazingly, the front+rear open pistol sights superimpose on the target! Just like a red dot, but without a red-dot! My iron sights now function like a red dot, but without the expense, learning curve, pistol mods, etc.

Red dots?! We don' need no steenkeen red dots!

(link = Treasure of the Sierra Madre)

I was also trained using iron sights by my GYSGT Dad. 1950-1969, Korea-Viet Nam. Having gone into the Corps myself, 1973-1979, I went through the exact same Marksmanship training he did. As a Corporal in 1975, I shot Expert with the M16 on the KD course. I know what I am speaking of.
Recently, all of my main CCW pistols have been converted to RDS. Why? Two reasons: I‘m 67 years old and so are my eyes. I can no longer see the front sight clearly, one eye or two eyes open. Secondly, I’m a gun freak and I like to try new things as they come out in my hobby. What I’ve found is that I can shoot faster more accurate shots using MY 67 YEAR OLD EYES using a RDS than using iron sights.

I also have an RDS on one AR-15 set up for CQB. Much handier in that application.
shooting groundhogs out to 300 yards though, give me crosshairs!

 

[700 LTR 223]

Recently, all of my main CCW pistols have been converted to RDS. Why? Two reasons: I‘m 67 years old and so are my eyes. I can no longer see the front sight clearly, one eye or two eyes open. Secondly, I’m a gun freak and I like to try new things as they come out in my hobby. What I’ve found is that I can shoot faster more accurate shots using MY 67 YEAR OLD EYES using a RDS than using iron sights.

Exactly! I'm right there with you, although "only" 60. Right around 2014 is where I started noticing having issues with open sights. Some guns like my 1911 I had not fired in years as I could no longer achieve a proper sight picture. If someone can shoot significantly better with a red dot why not use one? I know some will say they are 87 and still shoot sights well ,everyone is different.

 

[gregkl]

I was also trained using iron sights by my GYSGT Dad. 1950-1969, Korea-Viet Nam. Having gone into the Corps myself, 1973-1979, I went through the exact same Marksmanship training he did. As a Corporal in 1975, I shot Expert with the M16 on the KD course. I know what I am speaking of.
Recently, all of my main CCW pistols have been converted to RDS. Why? Two reasons: I‘m 67 years old and so are my eyes. I can no longer see the front sight clearly, one eye or two eyes open. Secondly, I’m a gun freak and I like to try new things as they come out in my hobby. What I’ve found is that I can shoot faster more accurate shots using MY 67 YEAR OLD EYES using a RDS than using iron sights.

I also have an RDS on one AR-15 set up for CQB. Much handier in that application.
shooting groundhogs out to 300 yards though, give me crosshairs! View attachment 261947

I have yet to run a clean Dot Torture! I will one day!