Red dots?! We don' need no steenkeen red dots!

[2AOK]

I have another revelation for you.. Try covering the front of the Red dot with a piece of tape and you will find you can still see the dot as well as the target. I'm just as accurate and fast with the lens of the dot covered as I am with it uncovered.
I have had enough students in class that I'm comfortable saying that most people can not separate the input from both eyes seeing the target with one and the sights with the other. More power to you if you can shoot as well with sights as with a red dot but that isn't the case for most people..

Thanks for the suggestion. You're right on the money. I did that early in my rifle red-dot experiments. It was an important factor.

When I walk past my rifle I always want to shoulder it and point at some "target." My Sig Romeo5 has a pair of lens covers attached by rubber straps (front to rear cover). Lately I just leave the covers ON and find it easier and easier to see my target centered on the surface of the rear cover.

So like I said, "We don' need no steenkeen red dots." I'm pretty sure I could hit center mass at 100 feet with just my lens cap.

 

[2AOK]

To be fair with a scope you adjust the parallax of the scope so that your reticle and the target are both equally in focus so you can focus on either depending on the task.

That would be nice.

 

[2AOK]

My eyes have gotten so bad if it weren't for dots I'd be limited to scattergun.

I hear you. Mine aren't what they were, either. Admittedly I'm only dry firing this theory, so initial results might be disappointing when I get around to live fire...BUT...so far I see the pistol sights well enough to know they're aligned and on target. Perfectly on target? Probably not. They're a little blurry but clear enough for typical defensive shooting.

Try it! You might surprise yourself.

 

[NHT3]

Thanks for the suggestion. You're right on the money. I did that early in my rifle red-dot experiments. It was an important factor.

When I walk past my rifle I always want to shoulder it and point at some "target." My Sig Romeo5 has a pair of lens covers attached by rubber straps (front to rear cover). Lately I just leave the covers ON and find it easier and easier to see my target centered on the surface of the rear cover.

So like I said, "We don' need no steenkeen red dots." I'm pretty sure I could hit center mass at 100 feet with just my lens cap.

Possibly you should restate what you said to "I don't need no Steenkeen red dot".. If you don't need a red dot that's great but it's a huge benefit for many people.. Wish you were closer I think a trip to the range might alter your thoughts on the subject.

 

[2AOK]

Possibly you should restate what you said to "I don't need no Steenkeen red dot".. If you don't need a red dot that's great but it's a huge benefit for many people.. Wish you were closer I think a trip to the range might alter your thoughts on the subject.

Point taken. And I just looked into editing the thread title, but it's too late.

It's just that the famous movie line uses the pronoun 'we'. I hope folks here are good natured enough to not take offense. I don't mean any. Right or wrong, I already argued against red dots for pistols in an earlier thread. Enough of that. Now I'm just pointing out surprising (to me) realizations brought about my my willingness to take a closer look at red dot optics. I guess you could say I'm half way there now (the glass is half full).

And I agree with you. For any with vision difficulties, a red dot can be a real blessing. Speaking as my own guinea pig, my vision is not so hot, yet the two-eyes-open phenomenon still superimposes pistol iron sights on the target.

 

[NHT3]

Point taken. And I just looked into editing the thread title, but it's too late.

It's just that the famous movie line uses the pronoun 'we'. I hope folks here are good natured enough to not take offense. I don't mean any. Right or wrong, I already argued against red dots for pistols in an earlier thread. Enough of that. Now I'm just pointing out surprising (to me) realizations brought about my my willingness to take a closer look at red dot optics. I guess you could say I'm half way there now (the glass is half full).

And I agree with you. For any with vision difficulties, a red dot can be a real blessing. Speaking as my own guinea pig, my vision is not so hot, yet the two-eyes-open phenomenon still superimposes pistol iron sights on the target.

Paddle on a dueling tree shot at 7 yards by a Chinese lady that was holding a pistol (TX22 competition) for second time in her life.. I had two of these ladies neither having any previous firearms experience and they both struggled with sights but were phenomenal with a red dot.. I don't fully understand it but I know it works.

 

[Amishman44]

Up to that point, I had been squinting the left eye and looking at the dot with my right eye, doing as I was instructed long ago, "Focus on the front sight and let your target be a blur."

Interestingly, I've always been taught to keep the target in focus and let the sights be a 'blur' in 'no-sight' distance and 'peripheral-sight' distance shooting...and it works too!

 

[ditcherman]

I hear you. Mine aren't what they were, either. Admittedly I'm only dry firing this theory, so initial results might be disappointing when I get around to live fire...BUT...so far I see the pistol sights well enough to know they're aligned and on target. Perfectly on target? Probably not. They're a little blurry but clear enough for typical defensive shooting.

Try it! You might surprise yourself.

I'll be interested to see if you think it's still as effective as you now think it is, once you go live.

 

[G192127]

I shot NRA bullseye for years..Master Class with iron sights. If it weren't for red dots I'd be unable to shoot pistol. That's it for me.
IF (that's a big IF) we ever got in a firefight, and I was on your side, you'd be damned glad I had a dot....

 

[2AOK]

Paddle on a dueling tree shot at 7 yards by a Chinese lady that was holding a pistol (TX22 competition) for second time in her life.. I had two of these ladies neither having any previous firearms experience and they both struggled with sights but were phenomenal with a red dot.. I don't fully understand it but I know it works.

Amen, NHT3.

THIS IS A LINK TO MY FIRST POST, IN MY THREAD ARGUING AGAINST PISTOL OPTICS. See the paragraph right below the second pistol image.

I was in full agreement with your Chinese-lady experience. Some argued in that thread that the red dot could not produce such accurate, quick results with new shooters. I still believe it can and often does, and your experience is evidence. Thanks.

 

[2AOK]

I'll be interested to see if you think it's still as effective as you now think it is, once you go live.

Agreed. But if the method fails to provide the desired result at first, I'll invest time and ammunition in it. It's really a game changer, if it works, and I think it will.

I wish all you guys would try it for yourselves, just dry fire around the house and then live fire at your next range trip.

 

[2AOK]

I shot NRA bullseye for years..Master Class with iron sights. If it weren't for red dots I'd be unable to shoot pistol. That's it for me.
IF (that's a big IF) we ever got in a firefight, and I was on your side, you'd be damned glad I had a dot....

Man, I'll take all the help I can get.

I don't want to argue about pistol optics. I'm just saying that your level of skill and experience with thet thar "electro optic" will be a factor in whether or not you're busy huntin' fer yer dot while I'm busy laying down suppressing fire. heh heh

 

[2AOK]

Interestingly, I've always been taught to keep the target in focus and let the sights be a 'blur' in 'no-sight' distance and 'peripheral-sight' distance shooting...and it works too!

That's how I was taught, and how I shot everything other than a shotgun. My Dad taught me and he was well trained, so I know it's an honored, long-accepted method.

It works fine for me when hunting or squeeeeezing off pistol/rifle rounds. But in those instances nobody's returning fire. For defensive shooting practice, I absolutely want to develop two-eyes-open; for me focus on the target works well for that.

 

[indyblue]

Ima gonna buck the trend here a little.

DISCLAIMER - I'm a novice shooter, no formal training other an innate skill that I can always get shots on the target with a rare flyer outside but still on the paper at 5-7 yards easily.

I've tried a buddies sig (can't remember if a P365 or P320) with a red dot. I had to really concentrate to get the dot on target in a timely manner but same result as just stock sites.

Then I tried a laser. WOW, nothing could be more simple and natural to me. All shots in the 7-10 rings of the target.

Take it for what it's worth and that's not much.

PROS: fast and easy acquisition, even in low light, POI very close to the laser point. No milling of the slide to mount necessary.
CONS: No idea if it's any more difficult to get a holster with provision for the laser but it seems less bulky than a red dot for EDC.

Not a lot of difference in price for a decent laser vs. RDS

Now I goota get me one and see what holsters will fit with an under frame rail or trigger guard mounted laser.

EDIT: A laser exaggerates your shakiness but I find it a good thing, the instantanious visual feedback lets me practice relaxing and I eventually calm down and compensate my grip, stance and site-in to correct bad habits.

Bottom line: I'd much rather have a laser than a RDS. I'm not sure what problem an RDS is supposed to solve vs a laser but I'm sure someone with much more experience than I will let me know.

 

[ditcherman]

Agreed. But if the method fails to provide the desired result at first, I'll invest time and ammunition in it. It's really a game changer, if it works, and I think it will.

I wish all you guys would try it for yourselves, just dry fire around the house and then live fire at your next range trip.

I never had that deeply ingrained front sight focus, which is why I think I picked up the dot easier.

 

[ditcherman]

Ima gonna buck the trend here a little.

DISCLAIMER - I'm a novice shooter, no formal training other an innate skill that I can always get shots on the target with a rare flyer outside but still on the paper at 5-7 yards easily.

I've tried a buddies sig (can't remember if a P365 or P320) with a red dot. I had to really concentrate to get the dot on target in a timely manner but same result as just stock sites.

Then I tried a laser. WOW, nothing could be more simple and natural to me. All shots in the 7-10 rings of the target.

Take it for what it's worth and that's not much.

PROS: fast and easy acquisition, even in low light, POI very close to the laser point. No milling of the slide to mount necessary.
CONS: No idea if it's any more difficult to get a holster with provision for the laser but it seems less bulky than a red dot for EDC.

Not a lot of difference in price for a decent laser vs. RDS

Now I goota get me one and see what holsters will fit with an under frame rail or trigger guard mounted laser.

EDIT: A laser exaggerates your shakiness but I find it a good thing, the instantanious visual feedback lets me practice relaxing and I eventually calm down and compensate my grip, stance and site-in to correct bad habits.

Bottom line: I'd much rather have a laser than a RDS. I'm not sure what problem an RDS is supposed to solve vs a laser but I'm sure someone with much more experience than I will let me know.

Well, it’s a journey, and your journey is yours, but there’s many things all of us can learn from those that went before us.
My experience with lasers is that they are hard to keep at correct poa/poi, long term. I’m not going to be happy “on paper” at 5 to 7 yards but that’s just me.

Someone also was making the argument in the other big red dot thread that it could take up to 10,000 reps of live fire to get used to the dot, so there’s that.

My experience is that I’ve known some really good shooters that borrowed a buddies dot gun and decided from there they didn’t like dots.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between those two things.

 

[gregkl]

I was in full agreement with your Chinese-lady experience. Some argued in that thread that the red dot could not produce such accurate, quick results with new shooters. I still believe it can and often does, and your experience is evidence. Thanks.

My wife is a prime example of how shooting a dot can make a brand new shooter proficient from the start. I put a Ruger MKII with a dot in her hand and she dropped the plate rack in 3.48 seconds.

She really likes that all she has to do is look at the target and when the dot appears, pull the trigger.

Same with a scoped rifle. We do this drill where you shoot a small circle that has a number value. The goal is to score the highest numerical score in so many shots. The smaller the circle, the higher the number value. She can beat me at times and does good overall. And a scope is sorta like a dot; put the crosshairs on the target and send it.

It's one of those ingrained muscle memory things. A lot of us have to unlearn current and former training and relearn the dots. In a generation, folks will start with dots and wonder what those steel protrusions are on the front and rear of the firearm.

Side benefit: I think a lot more new shooters will enjoy shooting more if they use red dots. It's affirming to have early success and makes it more fun all around.

I have several firearms set up so when it comes time to teach my grandkids how to shoot, they will have fun and a modicum of success early on.

 

[tackdriver]

Possibly you should restate what you said to "I don't need no Steenkeen red dot".. If you don't need a red dot that's great but it's a huge benefit for many people.. Wish you were closer I think a trip to the range might alter your thoughts on the subject.

According to the college kids I know, "We" is perfectly acceptable when speaking of ones singular self.

Wow, typing that gave me an epiphany... Maybe that's why they think "We the People..." only applies to them/they. I have a whole new understanding of the origins of the growing sense of entitlement and selfishness, and disregard for the liberty of others!

 

[Dean C.]

My wife is a prime example of how shooting a dot can make a brand new shooter proficient from the start. I put a Ruger MKII with a dot in her hand and she dropped the plate rack in 3.48 seconds.

She really likes that all she has to do is look at the target and when the dot appears, pull the trigger.

Same with a scoped rifle. We do this drill where you shoot a small circle that has a number value. The goal is to score the highest numerical score in so many shots. The smaller the circle, the higher the number value. She can beat me at times and does good overall. And a scope is sorta like a dot; put the crosshairs on the target and send it.

It's one of those ingrained muscle memory things. A lot of us have to unlearn current and former training and relearn the dots. In a generation, folks will start with dots and wonder what those steel protrusions are on the front and rear of the firearm.

Side benefit: I think a lot more new shooters will enjoy shooting more if they use red dots. It's affirming to have early success and makes it more fun all around.

I have several firearms set up so when it comes time to teach my grandkids how to shoot, they will have fun and a modicum of success early on.

YES! This over and over again, it is SO much easier to teach a new shooter "put the dot on the target and pull the trigger" opposed to "line up the sights and then aim at the target and pull the trigger". In my very limited experience most people struggle with the concept of iron sights, red dots however people understand very well. As a fringe benefit my wife prefers an optic equipted pistol for manipulating the side, it's like a giant cocking handle almost and makes running the slide much easier.

Now i would never advocate for not having BUIS on all the guns , so learning irons at some point is still mandatory.

Also lasers , while it may be good to 5-7 yards , try the laser at 25 yards and report back with results or better yet range target pictures. Because correct me if I am mistaken but they are only good for a relatively fixed distance compared to where they zeroed at. A red dot is also fantastic for showing how much the pistol moves in the shooters grip and provides immediate feedback upon recoil of how your grip on the pistol is as well. If you have a proper grip on the pistol the dot will essentially go straight up and down allowing the shooter to track it easier, or on some guns set up correctly the dot never even leaves the window.

 

[gregkl]

A red dot is also fantastic for showing how much the pistol moves in the shooters grip and provides immediate feedback upon recoil of how your grip on the pistol is as well. If you have a proper grip on the pistol the dot will essentially go straight up and down allowing the shooter to track it easier, or on some guns set up correctly the dot never even leaves the window.

At first I would lose the dot and have no idea which way it went. I am progressively getting better. At some point I could see where it went and then I became able to control it so it goes straight up and back down. Now that I switched from the RMR to the SRO, I am close to being able to keep it in my view throughout the shot.

I have only had a couple range sessions with the SRO but I think it will come quickly that I keep the dot in the glass.