Red dots on handguns are for play (change my mind)

[T4rdV4rk]

I had a RDS on my carry gun, but found I was faster in self defense ranges upto 15yds with open sights.
Past that the dot took over for speed and accuracy in my case.
So since the overwhelming majority of self defense shootings occur under 10yds I just took the RDS off my edc.
I bought a dagger that I plan to mount an RDS on, and use it as a learning pistol. Once I learn to use the RDS as well as iron sights under 10yds I'm going to mount one back onto my edc.

On my 44mag revolver I put one on because you can actually see the sight once it starts getting darker when doing the evening hunt or early morning when it's still not quite bright enough to make my iron sights visible.

Accurate shots in the dark sounds like a great reason for red dot.

 

[MCgrease08]

I wanted to know what Ingo thinks. I trust this community.

The search function is your friend. Literally hundreds if not thousands of posts on this topic over several threads.

 

[92FSTech]

For those of you who claim that they aren't faster than irons up close, have you shot one while moving, or even stationary but between rapid position transitions? How about in low light? All of these scenarios are a lot more likely to happen in real life than a nice squared-off stationary shooting in broad daylight, and at least in my experience the dot greatly simplifies shooting under these conditions because it's paralax free and you don't have to worry about aligning your sights in conditions where they are not easy to see or bouncing around...just get the dot over what you want to hit and squeeze.

As others have stated, they help with accuracy at distance. IMO they can be a force multiplier in an active shooter type situation where you might have to take a longer distance shot than statistically likely in other types of defensive shootings. I can't carry a rifle everywhere, but I can carry a handgun with a dot...not saying their capabilities are equal, but it does shrink the gap a little bit when it comes to hitting stuff far away.

Yes, electronics fail and batteries die. You have to stay on top of these things, check them daily, and be proactive about battery changes on schedule. I also would't have a dot-equipped carry gun without backup irons. But with a quality dot, failure is less of an issue than you'd think.

Your two points about good shooters pointing instinctively and red dots requiring a different sight picture are arguing against yourself. One, I wouldn't say it's instinctive...it's a practiced and consistent presentation that takes work to develop, with either sighting system. What the red dot does is show you imediately that your presentation is wrong, because when it is you can't see the dot. Practicing your draw and presentation with a dot gives you the feedback that you need to perfect that under dry-fire conditions without expending a single round of ammo. Personally, I've found that working with the dot has made me a better iron sight shooter. Many of my guns don't have dots, and never will...but my ability to shoot them accurately has not been at all degraded by spending time with a dot.

Size and weight...yeah, it's bigger and heavier. No way around that. I have a couple of handguns with dots, and I can still carry them comfortably concealed in most situations. As always, the mission drives the gear, so when I feel I may need it I make it work. Other times a J-Frame in the pocket will serve my needs, and the bigger gun with the dot stays home. I know there are plenty of subcompacts or even micro-compacts out there these days with dots...I'm a big guy with big hands and have never really warmed up to tiny semi-autos, with or without a dot. I can shoot them, I just don't like them, and I'm willing to put up with the added weight and bulk of something bigger. That may change at some point, but for now what I have is meeting my needs.

Last point...dots don't equate to lasers. Lasers wash out in bright light much more easily than a dot, are difficult to acquire, and visually amplify any movement by the shooter to a huge degree. I do own one that I use as a training aid to show students just how much small movements of the gun translate to large changes in point of impact on target, and putting one on a student's gun can help me diagnose issues with their presentation and trigger pull in dry-fire. I've found that under live-fire, lasers tend to be frustrating and distracting as a shooter tries to smash the trigger as the laser crosses their desired point of impact rather than just accepting their "wobble zone", since it now appears massive downrange. Lasers also tend to not hold zero very well, as even quality ones are typically mounted somewhere on the grip-frame of the handgun rather than the slide.

A few years back before I had significant exposure to the dot I was definitely a naysayer. I even bought one to try and came away with most of the same arguments as the OP. With more time, research, and training, I've come around. They aren't magic and won't turn a poor shooter into an expert just by slapping one on their gun, but for a competent shooter who trains and practices they offer a lot of advantages, especially once you step outside the sterilized and unrealistic environment of the static range.

 

[cedartop]

I will posit that everyone is better off buying practice ammo for their edc instead of a red dot.

- good shooters point instinctively within typical self defense range
- red dots are electronic, consume batteries, and are an additional failure point
- red dots add weight
- unless all your pistols have red dots, you have inconsistent sight pictures across arms
- i personally find them unnatural vs irons, admittedly this is likely a training issue
- all of these points also apply to lasers

In conclusion i believe red dots are a fad. They look cool and may be a status symbol.

Are the above ideas incorrect or do the pros of red dots outweigh these cons?

Pros:
Accurate shots in the dark

My history with slide mounted red dots on defensive pistols goes back farther than probably anyone here. I started carrying one in early 2010 and took my first red dot instructor class in late 2010. Since then I have put tens of thousands of rounds through pistols with them (maybe hundreds of thousands?), taken countless classes with them (maybe dozens?) and shot them in quite a few matches.I shot my actual carry gun in USPSA the first year they offered it as a provisional division, 2016 I think. That being said, I sort of agree with you. Not your points, most of those are silly.

I agree because I have said before I definitely don't think they are necessary. Actually I don't even think they are "better" for everyone. The typical handgun owner, that is someone who buys a handgun and at best puts 100 or so rounds a year through one shouldn't bother, especially if they carry it. It is an unneeded expense that won't gain them anything. I feel at this point and have observed it over and over, red dots on handguns are best reserved for serious enthusiasts.

Putting a red dot on a handgun is not the same as putting one on a rifle. Some of the same things that make a rifle easier to shoot well than a handgun apply even more with a red dot system. Mainly multiple points of contact. For speed, the index is super important on a red dot equipped handgun. You don't have early visual feedback like you do with irons. You need the dot to be there when you reach extension. This requires practice. As we all know practice is not just something most don't do enough of, it is something most don't do any of. This is one reason why many find dots slower up close, though there are others.

In closing, I feel somewhat the same about red dots on handguns as I do Snubbies and 1911's, they aren't for casual users. Is a red dot on a handgun a superior sighting system? Yes. Is it a better one? That depends.

 

[gregkl]

OP, how's your eyesight? Do you see a blurry rear sight, front sight and target?

That reason alone is enough for me to use a red dot. I have optics on all of my rifles and pistols that I shoot regularly.

I'm even getting ready to order a plate to mount one to my S&W 617.

Shooting iron sights have never been intuitive for me. I always struggled with the whole "front sight focus" thing. How can I hit the target unless I'm looking at it? I can take the time to line up the front sight with the rear perfectly but where does my shot go?

Most everything in life involving eye/hand coordination requires a focus on the target to achieve results. Throwing a ball, shooting a bow, casting a rod, getting a race car through a turn. The list goes on and on.

I posit that a dot is more intuitive than iron sights.

 

[gregkl]

My history with slide mounted red dots on defensive pistols goes back farther than probably anyone here. I started carrying one in early 2010 and took my first red dot instructor class in late 2010. Since then I have put tens of thousands of rounds through pistols with them (maybe hundreds of thousands?), taken countless classes with them (maybe dozens?) and shot them in quite a few matches.I shot my actual carry gun in USPSA the first year they offered it as a provisional division, 2016 I think. That being said, I sort of agree with you. Not your points, most of those are silly.

I agree because I have said before I definitely don't think they are necessary. Actually I don't even think they are "better" for everyone. The typical handgun owner, that is someone who buys a handgun and at best puts 100 or so rounds a year through one shouldn't bother, especially if they carry it. It is an unneeded expense that won't gain them anything. I feel at this point and have observed it over and over, red dots on handguns are best reserved for serious enthusiasts.

Putting a red dot on a handgun is not the same as putting one on a rifle. Some of the same things that make a rifle easier to shoot well than a handgun apply even more with a red dot system. Mainly multiple points of contact. For speed, the index is super important on a red dot equipped handgun. You don't have early visual feedback like you do with irons. You need the dot to be there when you reach extension. This requires practice. As we all know practice is not just something most don't do enough of, it is something most don't do any of. This is one reason why many find dots slower up close, though there are others.

In closing, I feel somewhat the same about red dots on handguns as I do Snubbies and 1911's, they aren't for casual users. Is a red dot on a handgun a superior sighting system? Yes. Is it a better one? That depends.

Good points. I agree if you are not shooting regularly, then save the money.

 

[cedartop]

OP, how's your eyesight? Do you see a blurry rear sight, front sight and target?

That reason alone is enough for me to use a red dot. I have optics on all of my rifles and pistols that I shoot regularly.

I'm even getting ready to order a plate to mount one to my S&W 617.

Shooting iron sights have never been intuitive for me. I always struggled with the whole "front sight focus" thing. How can I hit the target unless I'm looking at it? I can take the time to line up from front sight with the rear perfectly but where does my shot go?

Most everything in life involving eye/hand coordination requires a focus on the target to achieve results. Throwing a ball, shooting a bow, casting a rod, getting a race car through a turn. The list goes on and on.

I posit that a dot is more intuitive than iron sights.

Target focus is indeed one of the big benefits of the RDS system. Many people who grew up on irons and front sight focus take a while to get this correct. That can be another thing that slows them down. They see that dot bouncing around out there and feel the need to overconfirm. I realize you already know this, but for those that don't, I though I would throw it out there

 

[mcapo]

I am old and my eyes are older. Handgun sights are no longer in focus. Many rifle rear sights aren't even visible.

Give me an optic on everything.

Red dots have been around a long time and recent years have seen the size and durability become universally practical. The technology surrounding them will only improve. They are not just a fad.

We have come a long way....

 

[flightsimmer]

I have been considering buying one of the new Smith & Wesson folding, 9 mm carbines, but the one I've seen demonstrated has a red dot on top that sticks way up and looks like it would easily be broken off.
If I would go with iron sights I would prefer some with the glow in the dark and I'm not certain which way I ought to go with it.
I may have to buy the carbine and then decide what kind of sites I want on it.
So far I've not been able to find one that I could handle and try out in a local gun store, that would be a big help.

 

[ECS686]

My history with slide mounted red dots on defensive pistols goes back farther than probably anyone here. I started carrying one in early 2010 and took my first red dot instructor class in late 2010. Since then I have put tens of thousands of rounds through pistols with them (maybe hundreds of thousands?), taken countless classes with them (maybe dozens?) and shot them in quite a few matches.I shot my actual carry gun in USPSA the first year they offered it as a provisional division, 2016 I think. That being said, I sort of agree with you. Not your points, most of those are silly.

I agree because I have said before I definitely don't think they are necessary. Actually I don't even think they are "better" for everyone. The typical handgun owner, that is someone who buys a handgun and at best puts 100 or so rounds a year through one shouldn't bother, especially if they carry it. It is an unneeded expense that won't gain them anything. I feel at this point and have observed it over and over, red dots on handguns are best reserved for serious enthusiasts.

Putting a red dot on a handgun is not the same as putting one on a rifle. Some of the same things that make a rifle easier to shoot well than a handgun apply even more with a red dot system. Mainly multiple points of contact. For speed, the index is super important on a red dot equipped handgun. You don't have early visual feedback like you do with irons. You need the dot to be there when you reach extension. This requires practice. As we all know practice is not just something most don't do enough of, it is something most don't do any of. This is one reason why many find dots slower up close, though there are others.

In closing, I feel somewhat the same about red dots on handguns as I do Snubbies and 1911's, they aren't for casual users. Is a red dot on a handgun a superior sighting system? Yes. Is it a better one? That depends.

^^THIS^^

I have also taken a RDS class (Handguns Combatives by Dave Spaulding himself) the main reason was because I see more and more RDS in classes I teach so I wanted to be more family with the handgun RDS stuff. As for myself I probably won’t go to them unless I have eye issues.

They are not for everyone and most non professional students or folks into firearms will not benefit OR out in the initial rounds and time needed to be proficient period.

I spent a few decades as an agency instructor and have taught in the civilian world for about 6 and LE and Civilian break down the same with how serious they take firearms. Only about 10% or less of both groups go to the range regularly in a training or competition capacity. According to Tom Givens out of the millions of gun owners There are only around 16-20 thousand that are professional students.

There are some phenomenal RDS shooters around and everyone talks about how fast and accurate at distance they are. Those are more on the technical side of shooting and not so much the applications side (ie I can only go as fast as I can assess I need to use lethal force)

So there is that side which I believe is overlooked in all areas of running a firearm.

 

[gregkl]

I have been considering buying one of the new Smith & Wesson folding, 9 mm carbines, but the one I've seen demonstrated has a red dot on top that sticks way up and looks like it would easily be broken off.
If I would go with iron sights I would prefer some with the glow in the dark and I'm not certain which way I ought to go with it.
I may have to buy the carbine and then decide what kind of sites I want on it.
So far I've not been able to find one that I could handle and try out in a local gun store, that would be a big help.

I personally wouldn't be concerned about the optic breaking off. There has been optics sticking on top of rifles for a long time. Get a sturdy mount.

I'm thinking about buying one. I have a RMR sitting around that needs to be attached to something.

 

[bobzilla]

Y'all can have whatever you want. I'm'a just sit over here with my snubby and die.

 

[Leadeye]

I had limited experience with red dot anything, but like mcapo, my eyes got older and irons became harder to see. A mutual friend KJQ brought me up to speed on red dots and it improved my accuracy a great deal. Fast forward to this year after cataract surgery and I'm back to irons again, which is good as most of the guns I shoot are older and would look strange with electronic sights.

I think it's a decision on what helps you shoot better. All of us should aspire to be old, and when that day comes you just can't see irons like you used to.

 

[bobzilla]

I had limited experience with red dot anything, but like mcapo, my eyes got older and irons became harder to see. A mutual friend KJQ brought me up to speed on red dots and it improved my accuracy a great deal. Fast forward to this year after cataract surgery and I'm back to irons again, which is good as most of the guns I shoot are older and would look strange with electronic sights.

I think it's a decision on what helps you shoot better. All of us should aspire to be old, and when that day comes you just can't see irons like you used to.

Bold part I agree with. Aesthetics are a thing. I love the clean lines of my 1911's and since they point-shoot for me so well I don't really feel a need for a rds. I'm sure they are helpful and I am sure people can shoot better/faster with them. Just not for me.

 

[Basher]

A few weeks ago, the front sight on my fancy and expensive Langdon Tactical Beretta 92G flew off in the middle of a stage at a USPSA match. Literally there for one shot, gone for the next. I LOL at people who say irons are more reliable or more robust than a quality, modern dot.

At the same time, I had a then “tier one” optic, an Aimpoint T1, die on me in similar fashion at a class. Dot was there on one target, gone on the next. I transitioned to my fixed BUIS and finished the course of fire (and the class). It took a trip back to Sweden to fix it.

So both sighting devices are prone to failure. Have a backup. If I’d had a dot mounted to my LTT RDO, I would have just kept shooting and not even known the front fell off until I was done with the stage.

Anyway, you don’t have to use a dot if you don’t want to, but they’re the way of the future, and “the future is now old man!”

 

[Leadeye]

Bold part I agree with. Aesthetics are a thing. I love the clean lines of my 1911's and since they point-shoot for me so well I don't really feel a need for a rds. I'm sure they are helpful and I am sure people can shoot better/faster with them. Just not for me.

I only got as far as my Glock 40 and that had a cutout for the sight so it looks good on that modern gun. Eye surgery changed everything for me.

 

[Gabriel]

No need to try and change your mind. You're allowed to be wrong.

This.

 

[Leadeye]

I have a scoped carbine, but it has more of a steampunk look.

 

[ECS686]

Y'all can have whatever you want. I'm'a just sit over here with my snubby and die.

My latest guns (and I do carry them) No RDS required!!!

 

[printcraft]

If God wanted pistols to have red dots he would have put them on his 1911…