Red dots on handguns are for play (change my mind)

[Skip]

I rarely even use the rear sight on my pistols,

Finding the front sight does no good if you don’t find the rear sight though, right? I mean, from all my shooting experience, it always seemed they kinda worked better as a pair.

 

[BigRed3588]

Finding the front sight does no good if you don’t find the rear sight though, right? I mean, from all my shooting experience, it always seemed they kinda worked better as a pair.

If you’re shooting at a distance of 15 yards or less, you don’t need the rear sight to put your shots where you want them. Lining up your sights at close distances is a waste of time.

 

[92FSTech]

If you’re shooting at a distance of 15 yards or less, you don’t need the rear sight to put your shots where you want them.

Define "where you want them"

 

[BigRed3588]

Define "where you want them"

Literally exactly where you want them. When I subcontracted for DHS, the first drill the instructor (a former Air Marshal) taught me was punch out, put the front sight where you want the bullet to go as quickly as possible, and fire. Then return to high ready and repeat until you master it.

 

[BigRed3588]

Define "where you want them"

Read the section on Flash Sight Picture.

Defensive Shooting: Part 3 - Sight Alignment and Sight Picture

Sight alignment and sight picture are discussed in this article especially with regard for defesnive shooting events.

www.spartanfirearmstraininggroup.com

 

[BigRed3588]

Finding the front sight does no good if you don’t find the rear sight though, right? I mean, from all my shooting experience, it always seemed they kinda worked better as a pair.

I meant to reply to you with my last post. The section on Flash Sight Picture explains why I disregard the rear sights when I train.

 

[Skip]

I meant to reply to you with my last post. The section on Flash Sight Picture explains why I disregard the rear sights when I train.

See, with an RDS, you do the exact same thing ONLY it’s sighted in and without any parallax. And, the shots are well sighted shots. I’ve also been taught “flash sight picture” but one thing I am 100% sure of, it is not designed for precise shots. It’s designed for “tactically accurate” shots. For ringing steel. Thoracic cavity and maybe a generic head shot but not precise shots.
Shots good enough to be “minute of bad guy” accurate at close ranges. Not “left or right eye” accurate.
Most trainers are honest enough to tell folks that straight up.

 

[BigRed3588]

See, with an RDS, you do the exact same thing ONLY it’s sighted in and without any parallax. And, the shots are well sighted shots. I’ve also been taught “flash sight picture” but one thing I am 100% sure of, it is not designed for precise shots. It’s designed for “tactically accurate” shots. For ringing steel. Thoracic cavity and maybe a generic head shot but not precise shots.
Shots good enough to be “minute of bad guy” accurate at close ranges. Not “left or right eye” accurate.
Most trainers are honest enough to tell folks that straight up.

That’s exactly what I train for. This was the target we used for that drill. He’d call the shape and location and I’d punch out/fire. FSP shooting is accurate enough to consistently hit an area the size of one of these shapes at 7-10 yards. If it wasn’t, they probably wouldn’t teach people to use this technique when shooting on an airplane.

 

[ditcherman]

View attachment 278787

That’s exactly what I train for. This was the target we used for that drill. He’d call the shape and location and I’d punch out/fire. FSP shooting is accurate enough to consistently hit an area the size of one of these shapes at 7-10 yards. If it wasn’t, they probably wouldn’t teach people to use this technique when shooting on an airplane.

If you can hit these consistently doing what you call flash sight picture (yes I read the article, twice) then good on you, it must work.
But I would argue that there’s potential for error there, so much depends on your presentation consistency to only use the front sight at speed.

Just think of there were a way that you could incorporate your FSP technique without the potential for error, in other words it’s not bad guy front sight and hope the rear presented right fire, it’s bad guy has a dot superimposed on him fire, no focus anywhere but on bad guy.

 

[Skip]

How do you get 15 yards apart on most airplanes?

And, I’d say 5-7 yards would be more like it. But, we don’t have to agree.

 

[ditcherman]

I think a lot of the conversation in here revolves around a person’s predisposition, or philosophy. Maybe that’s overstating the obvious, but the reasons behind the reluctance to move to a red dot are sometimes valid - I don’t want to rely on anything battery, that’s a valid personal choice - and sometimes not so valid - well I borrowed a buddys dot at the range and I was no faster or better, that’s the worst one I hear I think.

It’s a whole ‘nuther animal, to get the max potential out of it, a whole new way that new shooters will be adopting, and the techniques to train will continue to evolve as well. We’re not finished.

 

[Skip]

I think a lot of the conversation in here revolves around a person’s predisposition, or philosophy. Maybe that’s overstating the obvious, but the reasons behind the reluctance to move to a red dot are sometimes valid - I don’t want to rely on anything battery, that’s a valid personal choice - and sometimes not so valid - well I borrowed a buddys dot at the range and I was no faster or better, that’s the worst one I hear I think.

It’s a whole ‘nuther animal, to get the max potential out of it, a whole new way that new shooters will be adopting, and the techniques to train will continue to evolve as well. We’re not finished.

Well said and, I’d like to add: "Most shooters that ‘have a way’ already have a personal best time they are working from and are too set in their ways to change.
Holosun: battery back up. .
I try to buy bulk batteries from Amazon and change them once a year. Most of my RDS have a rating of over 3 years.

 

[Bosshoss]

If you’re shooting at a distance of 15 yards or less, you don’t need the rear sight to put your shots where you want them. Lining up your sights at close distances is a waste of time.

Millions of shooters would disagree with that statement.
You say 15 yards here and then 3 to 7(in the article you linked to) later that is a big difference.
Sorry but it doesn't take anymore time to get a decent sight picture than it does to just look at the front sight. It just takes practice.
I have seen hundreds of shooters(me included) draw and get off a accurate aimed shot in less than a second on a target at 10 yards and sometimes more.
Glad it works for you but I will stick with what works for the masses.

 

[Bosshoss]

Literally exactly where you want them. When I subcontracted for DHS, the first drill the instructor (a former Air Marshal) taught me was punch out, put the front sight where you want the bullet to go as quickly as possible, and fire. Then return to high ready and repeat until you master it.

Curious what kind of times it took you to do that. I guess if it took you 2 or 3 seconds to do that then then you had time to line up the sights.
What is the DHS definition of high ready?
Why would you practice high ready when gun comes from a holster?

 

[BigRed3588]

Millions of shooters would disagree with that statement.
You say 15 yards here and then 3 to 7(in the article you linked to) later that is a big difference.
Sorry but it doesn't take anymore time to get a decent sight picture than it does to just look at the front sight. It just takes practice.
I have seen hundreds of shooters(me included) draw and get off a accurate aimed shot in less than a second on a target at 10 yards and sometimes more.
Glad it works for you but I will stick with what works for the masses.

I used 7-10 because that’s the range where I can do it consistently. I’ve seen it done as far as 15, but anything further generally requires the rear sights.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough with my original post, but I’m not saying reflex sights are a bad product, inferior, etc. I was simply saying they’re not for me. I trust what I know and I’m comfortable with my proficiency, so I don’t see the point in spending a boatload of money and countless hours learning something new.

 

[BigRed3588]

Curious what kind of times it took you to do that. I guess if it took you 2 or 3 seconds to do that then then you had time to line up the sights.
What is the DHS definition of high ready?
Why would you practice high ready when gun comes from a holster?

Gun up and tucked into the chest, canted sideways. Some call it close combat ready, some call it high compressed ready, he just used high ready.

We practiced from the holster when we had access to their range, and high ready when we were on a range that prohibited drawing from a holster. Reason being, you typically either shoot from the hip or go from holster to high ready to extended depending on the situation.

 

[cedartop]

Gun up and tucked into the chest, canted sideways. Some call it close combat ready, some call it high compressed ready, he just used high ready.

We practiced from the holster when we had access to their range, and high ready when we were on a range that prohibited drawing from a holster. Reason being, you typically either shoot from the hip or go from holster to high ready to extended depending on the situation.

Well I was going to get into this, but you just completely lost me with the shoot from the hip statement.

 

[cedartop]

I meant to reply to you with my last post. The section on Flash Sight Picture explains why I disregard the rear sights when I train.

You and I have a different view point on what FSP is. You most definitely use your rear sight. You want your front sight somewhere in the notch, it can just be short of perfect alignment.
Chris Baker from Lucky Gunner describes it exactly as I learned it from Tom Givens.

What is a Flash Sight Picture? - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Chris explores the concept of flash sight picture and why it matters for shooters interested in self-defense.

www.luckygunner.com

 

[Skip]

You and I have a different view point on what FSP is. You most definitely use your rear sight. You want your front sight somewhere in the notch, it can just be short of perfect alignment.
Chris Baker from Lucky Gunner describes it exactly as I learned it from Tom Givens.

What is a Flash Sight Picture? - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Chris explores the concept of flash sight picture and why it matters for shooters interested in self-defense.

www.luckygunner.com

It is called FSP for a reason. Flash SIGHT PICTURE, right? Lol

 

[BigRed3588]

Well I was going to get into this, but you just completely lost me with the shoot from the hip statement.

Straight from the course of fire. I’m sorry if you didn’t like my terminology, but this is shooting from the hip. You clear the holster, bend your elbow, and fire.