Red dots on handguns are for play (change my mind)

[BigRed3588]

You and I have a different view point on what FSP is. You most definitely use your rear sight. You want your front sight somewhere in the notch, it can just be short of perfect alignment.
Chris Baker from Lucky Gunner describes it exactly as I learned it from Tom Givens.

What is a Flash Sight Picture? - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Chris explores the concept of flash sight picture and why it matters for shooters interested in self-defense.

www.luckygunner.com

Chris Baker from Lucky Gunner also says it originated with Col. Cooper and the range master at Gunsite, who did the video in the link I posted, describes it differently…

 

[cedartop]

View attachment 278986 Straight from the course of fire. I’m sorry if you didn’t like my terminology, but this is shooting from the hip. You clear the holster, bend your elbow, and fire.

I am not sure what that is describing but what it should be talking about is shooting from retention, i.e. the thumb-pectoral index which you really only use if someone is right on top of you and you have to shoot but don't want to have to wrestle over your gun. If they are a little farther away but still within retention distance you could use the two handed compressed shooting position. However, everyone is free to make their own choices.

 

[cedartop]

Chris Baker from Lucky Gunner also says it originated with Col. Cooper and the range master at Gunsite, who did the video in the link I posted, describes it differently…

No where in that video did he say you don't use the rear sight. I know we are way off topic from the original post but I am not sure if we are just not understanding each other, or if you are misunderstanding FSP.

Flash Sight Picture​

A flash sight picture doesn’t necessarily require the perfect alignment of the front sight in the middle of the rear notch, or that the front sight be in perfect focus. In fact, at common defensive handgun distances, as long as the front sight is in the rear notch you can achieve vital zone hits.
What is it? Jeff Cooper talked about the flash sight picture as being part of his Modern Technique. As described in the book, The Modern Technique of the Pistol by Gregory Boyce Morrison to which Jeff Cooper served as an editorial advisor, “The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight picture sufficient to confirm alignment.” Let’s try to define it another way. The flash sight picture is confirmed with a focus on the front sight, and instantaneous verification is within the rear notch and covering the vital zone.

Aiming A Defensive Handgun, Is There One Right Way?

Contrary to popular belief, there's no one right way to aim a defensive handgun. A dynamic situation requires multiple techniques.

gundigest.com

 

[BigRed3588]

No where in that video did he say you don't use the rear sight. I know we are way off topic from the original post but I am not sure if we are just not understanding each other, or if you are misunderstanding FSP.

Flash Sight Picture​

A flash sight picture doesn’t necessarily require the perfect alignment of the front sight in the middle of the rear notch, or that the front sight be in perfect focus. In fact, at common defensive handgun distances, as long as the front sight is in the rear notch you can achieve vital zone hits.
What is it? Jeff Cooper talked about the flash sight picture as being part of his Modern Technique. As described in the book, The Modern Technique of the Pistol by Gregory Boyce Morrison to which Jeff Cooper served as an editorial advisor, “The flash sight-picture involves a glimpse of the sight picture sufficient to confirm alignment.” Let’s try to define it another way. The flash sight picture is confirmed with a focus on the front sight, and instantaneous verification is within the rear notch and covering the vital zone.

Aiming A Defensive Handgun, Is There One Right Way?

Contrary to popular belief, there's no one right way to aim a defensive handgun. A dynamic situation requires multiple techniques.

gundigest.com

Maybe we’re misunderstanding each other, or maybe I don’t know what I’m taking about. What I do know is this is three or four rapid fire 2-3 shot groupings I shot with a 1911 at 10 yards two weeks ago using the technique I’ve been describing. A technique I learned from an individual who’s been training federal agents for two decades. Are there people who can do it more accurately? Yes. I know it because I’ve seen it. Do I think it’s adequate? Yes. And like I’ve said, I don’t even look at the rear sites. You can train however you want, I don’t really care. I’m just telling you it works.

 

[cedartop]

View attachment 279025

Maybe we’re misunderstanding each other, or maybe I don’t know what I’m taking about. What I do know is this is three or four rapid fire 2-3 shot groupings I shot with a 1911 at 10 yards two weeks ago using the technique I’ve been describing. A technique I learned from an individual who’s been training federal agents for two decades. Are there people who can do it more accurately? Yes. I know it because I’ve seen it. Do I think it’s adequate? Yes. And like I’ve said, I don’t even look at the rear sites. You can train however you want, I don’t really care. I’m just telling you it works.

Yep. That's good shooting, I guess it doesn't matter how you are getting it done.

 

[Skip]

adequate

THIS is what I was getting at. A B8 shoot n see on a Q type target that is much larger than the "A zone" at 10 yards isn’t adequate accuracy to me. I figured we had way different standards of what accuracy was.

Did you happen to use a shot timer? I’d like to know what first shot times were. Do you shoot from concealment or from a duty rig? From concealment, I’m in the 1.5sec. time frame. 90%-95% of the time, I can hit the “A” zone in the head of an IDPA target.
Can you explain what happened with the shots that didn’t hit the 8" circle at 10 yards?

 

[Skip]

Sorry for this second post. Didn’t have pictures of my target on my iPad.
Those are all aimed shots, with a MRDS, @7 yards, from the course of fire shown. All from the holster.

 

[BigRed3588]

THIS is what I was getting at. A B8 shoot n see on a Q type target that is much larger than the "A zone" at 10 yards isn’t adequate accuracy to me. I figured we had way different standards of what accuracy was.

Did you happen to use a shot timer? I’d like to know what first shot times were. Do you shoot from concealment or from a duty rig? From concealment, I’m in the 1.5sec. time frame. 90%-95% of the time, I can hit the “A” zone in the head of an IDPA target.
Can you explain what happened with the shots that didn’t hit the 8" circle at 10 yards?

Didn’t I say from the beginning that I don’t shoot competition? It’s from concealment. It’s a B6, not a B8, and as I said, it was rapid fire 2 and 3 shot groupings with a 1911. So that’s what? Six shots out of approximately 50 that were all still within 4” of the bullseye despite not using the rear sights? Sorry I’m not Jerry freakin Miculek but I think most would agree that’ll get the job done, which is all I care about.

 

[cedartop]

THIS is what I was getting at. A B8 shoot n see on a Q type target that is much larger than the "A zone" at 10 yards isn’t adequate accuracy to me. I figured we had way different standards of what accuracy was.

Did you happen to use a shot timer? I’d like to know what first shot times were. Do you shoot from concealment or from a duty rig? From concealment, I’m in the 1.5sec. time frame. 90%-95% of the time, I can hit the “A” zone in the head of an IDPA target.
Can you explain what happened with the shots that didn’t hit the 8" circle at 10 yards?

Those are all good questions to understand what is going on, but at some point we have to realize this is all relative and not everyone has to have the same standards we do. I look at his target and how he said he arrived at it and say that is better than the vast majority of the handgun carrying population so good for him. I am better than a lot of people, but there are people a lot better than me.

 

[Skip]

Didn’t I say from the beginning that I don’t shoot competition? It’s from concealment. It’s a B6, not a B8, and as I said, it was rapid fire 2 and 3 shot groupings with a 1911. So that’s what? Six shots out of approximately 50 that were all still within 4” of the bullseye despite not using the rear sights? Sorry I’m not Jerry freakin Miculek but I think most would agree that’ll get the job done, which is all I care about.

And, sorry to have ruffled your feathers a bit, that was not my intent. I was just trying to say that your acceptance of accuracy was different than mine. I don’t shoot competition any more but all of the shooting in that drill is done from concealment too.
What I was trying to compare though is our accuracy differences between platforms. You say FSP and I say aimed fire.
The MRDS does away with the rear sight but it isn’t front sight only. I hope I’m explaining that correctly. It’s as accurate or more accurate than FPS and yet, there is only one sight focused upon. I hope I’ve explained that well enough. And, to each his own. And as was said earlier, you are far better than most….even if they use aimed fire. So, good on ya.

Now, as to my other question: Did you use a timer and what was your draw to first shot times?
How do you carry? OWB? IWB? AIWB? Just curious is all. Not trying to argue.
I’m not Bill Jordan of the Marines and Border Patrol either.

 

[BigRed3588]

And, sorry to have ruffled your feathers a bit, that was not my intent. I was just trying to say that your acceptance of accuracy was different than mine. I don’t shoot competition any more but all of the shooting in that drill is done from concealment too.
What I was trying to compare though is our accuracy differences between platforms. You say FSP and I say aimed fire.
The MRDS does away with the rear sight but it isn’t front sight only. I hope I’m explaining that correctly. It’s as accurate or more accurate than FPS and yet, there is only one sight focused upon. I hope I’ve explained that well enough. And, to each his own. And as was said earlier, you are far better than most….even if they use aimed fire. So, good on ya.

Now, as to my other question: Did you use a timer and what was your draw to first shot times?
How do you carry? OWB? IWB? AIWB? Just curious is all. Not trying to argue.
I’m not Bill Jordan of the Marines and Border Patrol either.

No, it’s been a while since I shot with a timer and even then it was to qualify. They only record scores when you pass. You typically don’t know the times unless you need remedial training and failure to complete drills is the reason.

Florida is CC only so it’s almost exclusively IWB now. 4 o’clock position to be exact. I’ll occasionally carry OWB with a button up (which I strongly prefer to IWB) but I’m down by Miami. It’s a little hot for that most of the year.

 

[Skip]

No, it’s been a while since I shot with a timer and even then it was to qualify. They only record scores when you pass. You typically don’t know the times unless you need remedial training and failure to complete drills is the reason.

Florida is CC only so it’s almost exclusively IWB now. 4 o’clock position to be exact. I’ll occasionally carry OWB with a button up (which I strongly prefer to IWB) but I’m down by Miami. It’s a little hot for that most of the year.

I don’t use a timer to make sure I BEAT a time, I use one to measure improvement. Say the drill is draw, run a Mozambique and I do it clean in 3 seconds when I start. In a month, shooting every week, I’d like to see me be able to do that same drill, with that same pistol, I less time. If I don’t better my time, I’m not progressing, assuming I’m getting the drill right. Make sense?

 

[BigRed3588]

I don’t use a timer to make sure I BEAT a time, I use one to measure improvement. Say the drill is draw, run a Mozambique and I do it clean in 3 seconds when I start. In a month, shooting every week, I’d like to see me be able to do that same drill, with that same pistol, I less time. If I don’t better my time, I’m not progressing, assuming I’m getting the drill right. Make sense?

I certainly understand the benefit and wish I was in a position to train like that. Unfortunately nobody down here really has land, I promoted and no longer have access to the DHS/ICE range, and most public ranges prohibit drawing from a holster. I know of one privately owned range where I can do it, and he limits membership to 60. I only get out there when I have a Monday off and can go with my FFL dealer. Basically, I have to practice drawing at home nowadays.

Hell, at this point I’d take just being able to shoot once a week. I’m lucky to get to the range once a month. I travel a lot for work now and it’s hard to spend a week on the road and then tell your lady and kids you’re spending one of your days home at the range.

 

[Skip]

I certainly understand the benefit and wish I was in a position to train like that. Unfortunately nobody down here really has land, I promoted and no longer have access to the DHS/ICE range, and most public ranges prohibit drawing from a holster. I know of one privately owned range where I can do it, and he limits membership to 60. I only get out there when I have a Monday off and can go with my FFL dealer. Basically, I have to practice drawing at home nowadays.

Hell, at this point I’d take just being able to shoot once a week. I’m lucky to get to the range once a month. I travel a lot for work now and it’s hard to spend a week on the road and then tell your lady and kids you’re spending one of your days home at the range.

Been retired for a year now. When we had kids at home, 5 of them, one income, it was really hard to get to the range. Have been empty nesters now for 15 years or so and, I usually go to the range when she goes to the grocery store….yeah, I ain’t doing the shopping thing. Lol
I have a local range that I joined and it’s $125/year. Lots of benefits with that.

I’ve reloaded for a long time, have a stockpile of components. Getting to the range once a week is easy for me and, for me, a priority. Shooting skills are perishable skills. As I get older, I find I need to go at least once a week.

Here are some of my times from first shooting the drill. You’ve seen the results on the target in previous pictures. Some of the larger times, I’ve halved or more. Some of the others I’ve shaved a second or so off. At 67, I’m just trying to improve each time out. Marksmanship isn’t a problem for me, getting it done in time is…. Lol

 

[redgreenrider]

Reminds me of the Glock hater threads.

The mystery of why some go out of their way to unconstructively trash widely accepted tools.

Says a lot more about those who are doing the trashing than what they are trying to somehow diminish, eh?

LOL, I just put a red dot on my new Glock 19

 

[Gabriel]

LOL, I just put a red dot on my new Glock 19

The more I use them, the more I realize it is the way. There is really no reason not to have a dot and anyone that says different is simply wrong. All my handguns will have them soon.

 

[Skip]

Measurable progress!
To the range tomorrow!

 

[devildog70]

Yeah no problem on pistols coming with optic cuts, if somebody wants to use their gun for play.

Somebody should let 1st SFOD-D know.

 

[FNparabellum]

I will posit that everyone is better off buying practice ammo for their edc instead of a red dot.

- good shooters point instinctively within typical self defense range
- red dots are electronic, consume batteries, and are an additional failure point
- red dots add weight
- unless all your pistols have red dots, you have inconsistent sight pictures across arms
- i personally find them unnatural vs irons, admittedly this is likely a training issue
- all of these points also apply to lasers

In conclusion i believe red dots are a fad. They look cool and may be a status symbol.

Are the above ideas incorrect or do the pros of red dots outweigh these cons?

Pros:
Accurate shots in the dark

As much as I agree with pretty much every point you made except that there just for play. I dislike optics on pistols but holy crap im a better shot when I use them on my buddies guns. That and anytime im outshot in competition it tends to be by a optic user. Again I hate using em but if its what you use in training use it for defense.

 

[DadSmith]

Here is an interesting video on MRDS vs Laser.
His outcome with the Laser is pretty much my outcome with iron sights.
His outcome with the MRDS at 15yds, and 25yds is basically what I can do also.
My problem with the MRDS is under 10yds. That's why I bought the Dagger, and mounted a MRDS on it to learn, and fix my problem. I'm just to slow acquiring the sight fast enough for my liking under 10yds.