Red dots on handguns are for play (change my mind)

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    I am far from the resident expert here but common sense tells me that even the highly trained will most likely focus on the threat in a life and death situation. Sighting systems designed to be used with a target focus are more intuitive and that is what a red dot offers. Bill Wilson berating someone for spending a few extra $$$$ for an item that could very well save a few tenths of a second demonstrates how out of touch he is. Unlike Bill most don't have an unlimited budget and time to train.. Having a target focus IS an advantage for most people, especially those with a limited training budget. Anyone that doesn't believe that is free to spend their extra $$$ on ammo.. Go with what works for you is the best advice I can give someone YMMV.
    It’s kinda comical that the gamer Bill Wilson, who now makes a living selling highly priced customized guns for CCW, is making any comment about spending anything for something gun related. Talk about hypocrisy on this issue. Dude, your 1911’s cost around $2500….crazy!
     

    Amishman44

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    I and many others would strongly disagree about this. Quite the opposite.

    And, yet, here we are, needing sighted fire…

    I’ve not been in a self-defense scenario to test that adrenaline dump, but know enough about myself that it could be ugly. I too try to train with that in mind, also with a lot of movement.
    Also, no offense meant, I think we see the reality differently.
    Disagreeing is normal...especially when it comes to different experiences and training.

    What's the 'average' close-quarters defense distance...3-9'? I believe the FBI statistics say that 85% of all self-defense shootings takes place at distances under 21'?

    Shortest distance...unsighted fire is the natural reaction...people don't tend to resort to 'training' as previously believed, it's now known that even police officers tend to crouch into a 'natural and neutral' defensive position and hold their pistol directly in front of themselves and fire.

    And then one gets into the Amigdala of the brain and how it affects one's perception, affects one's memory, etc., especially during a highly stressful, life and death situation...even with those who have training.

    The most important aspect of personal / self-defense is found in one's brain itself...
    Developing the ability to see and recognize what's going on around them (keeping one's head on a swivel), being able recognize potential and actual danger, and then taking action so as to be able to avoid a gunfight in the first place, if possible, is still the top priority. Keeping in mind that the best gunfight you can win is the one you never get into in the first place.
     

    ditcherman

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    Disagreeing is normal...especially when it comes to different experiences and training.

    What's the 'average' close-quarters defense distance...3-9'? I believe the FBI statistics say that 85% of all self-defense shootings takes place at distances under 21'?

    Shortest distance...unsighted fire is the natural reaction...people don't tend to resort to 'training' as previously believed, it's now known that even police officers tend to crouch into a 'natural and neutral' defensive position and hold their pistol directly in front of themselves and fire.

    And then one gets into the Amigdala of the brain and how it affects one's perception, affects one's memory, etc., especially during a highly stressful, life and death situation...even with those who have training.

    The most important aspect of personal / self-defense is found in one's brain itself...
    Developing the ability to see and recognize what's going on around them (keeping one's head on a swivel), being able recognize potential and actual danger, and then taking action so as to be able to avoid a gunfight in the first place, if possible, is still the top priority. Keeping in mind that the best gunfight you can win is the one you never get into in the first place.
    Ok, but none of that has to do with your claim that with a red dot you ‘always’ have to be sight focused.
    It’s actually ‘never’.
     

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    What's the 'average' close-quarters defense distance...3-9'? I believe the FBI statistics say that 85% of all self-defense shootings takes place at distances under 21'?
    Folks site this "data" but can’t put a finger on it physically or digitally. These statistics only exist on forums like this one. What about the shooting in Colorado where over 100 rounds were let lose before a police officer ever arrived? Gang shootings in our area consistently last longer at greater distances. Folks need to stop quoting the "FBI data" that doesn’t exist.
     

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    Defensive shooters have combat accuracy concerns first. Those shots are shot with both eyes open. Uber accurate shots are done with one eye closed focusing on the dot with the target blurry just as with iron sights.
     

    ditcherman

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    Gadgets don't make for better shooters...acquired knowledge and applied practice does!
    Well ok that’s a fine philosophy, but do nicer triggers help? You said above that you like a certain type of sights.
    If you follow your logic to its conclusion you should be shooting black powder, or a least some type of anemic revolver with no sights at all.

    I hope it’s obvious I’m using some hyperbole here, but it is kind of your argument.

    You still stated that red dots require you to have a sight focus, when it actually allows you to have a target focus.

    No gadgets, no batteries, no new fangled thing to carry or snag or learn, no argument from me at all.

    I’m better with a dot, I’m better with irons because I got better with a dot, and got educated about it.

    You do you, it’s only the misinformation I’m countering here.
     

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    Understanding these images and applying the principles found in them will help most folks that pull a trigger from time to time.
     

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    ditcherman

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    Defensive shooters have combat accuracy concerns first. Those shots are shot with both eyes open. Uber accurate shots are done with one eye closed focusing on the dot with the target blurry just as with iron sights.
    I don’t agree with this. Sighting in a pistol today, I took a few shots at 8” gongs 50 yards down and noticed I had both eyes open and target focus.

    ETA maybe I’m a slacker and you don’t call that accurate shooting :)
     

    ditcherman

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    I don't think a lot of trainers really want their students to become better shooters
    Not been my experience with Aaron Cowan and Gabe White for sure, and I’d say the same for Larry Vickers I guess.

    ETA my friends at Reveres Riders also certainly fit in the ‘get you better’ category!
     
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    MCgrease08

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    Developing the ability to see and recognize what's going on around them (keeping one's head on a swivel), being able recognize potential and actual danger, and then taking action so as to be able to avoid a gunfight in the first place, if possible, is still the top priority. Keeping in mind that the best gunfight you can win is the one you never get into in the first place.
    I agree that situational awareness is key and gives you time to react to a threat. But over the years I've come to the realization that having much, if any, control over avoiding a threat is wishful thinking.

    As self defenders we are always dealing with a reactionary deficit. The bad guy picks the time and place of the attack 100% of the time. It's just the nature of the game.

    Sometimes situational awareness will allow you to avoid being in the center of the **** storm, or keep the attacker's attention off of you. But it's impossible to completely avoid trouble if a bad guy decides he wants to start it.
     

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    I don’t agree with this. Sighting in a pistol today, I took a few shots at 8” gongs 50 yards down and noticed I had both eyes open and target focus.

    ETA maybe I’m a slacker and you don’t call that accurate shooting :)
    Well, in the old days, using revolvers in PPC at 50 yards, there were some that could keep all their shots in the 10 ring of a B27 target. WAAAAAAAY smaller than an 8" plate that you just gotta ding so you can hear the report…. Just sayin’
    Standards are lots different in these days…..
     

    cedartop

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    I don't think a lot of trainers really want their students to become better shooters
    At first glance the cynical side of me would entertain that notion, but then I try and actually come up with someone and I can't. I would agree that some trainers don't know how to make their students better shooters, and maybe some don't really care, but I can't think that many don't actually actively want their students to not improve. If you mean a lot are in it for their own ego, then I 100% agree.
     

    ditcherman

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    Well, in the old days, using revolvers in PPC at 50 yards, there were some that could keep all their shots in the 10 ring of a B27 target. WAAAAAAAY smaller than an 8" plate that you just gotta ding so you can hear the report…. Just sayin’
    Standards are lots different in these days…..
    I’m sure I would have shot that one eye closed! And probably missed.

    Your statement about standards got me wondering why - if you watch the x games, wrestling, any kind of extreme sport humans have progressed massively towards doing better things…

    Maybe I haven’t learned the high standards…

    I know there’s some stuff in the drills thread that I’ve been meaning to study, as it seemed very challenging.
     

    92FSTech

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    Red Dots require one to always be 'sight-focused'

    When pistol mounted optics started to become a thing, I decided I needed to try one out just to familiarize myself with what was coming. I bought an RMR, got a slide milled, and hit the range on my own without any instruction or guidance...IIRC I was the first person in my "shooting circle" to buy one, so there wasn't really anybody to go to.

    I had the same perception as you did in your quote above...these things are great for precision at distance, but up close and under pressure they're not good for much.

    I had two problems ...I had inconsistent presentation and I was focusing on the dot. It's the natural tendency, especially for anyone who has ever worked with other types of optics in the past, or trained on iron sights...we look at the sight and use it to precisely align the gun on the target.

    I finally got to take a red dot class, and realized I'd been doing it all wrong. Instead of focusing on the dot, the shooter should be target focused. For fast, up close shooting, all you need is a flash sight picture of that dot superimposed in front of your target and you can make hits. Once you get the hang of this, it's faster than irons because you don't have to align two sets of sights in multiple focal plains...just see the target, bring the gun up, see the dot, and squeeze. Even if you're used to "point shooting" at close range, and you already have well-developed presentation mechanics, the dot gives instant confirmation that your gun is on target that you don't get with iron sights.

    A good drill for this is to occlude the front of the optic with a piece of tape so you can't see through it, then engage the target with both eyes open, focused on the target. Your left eye can see the target, your right eye has a dot in front of it, and your binocular vision will combine the two into a workable sight picture that you can use to make accurate hits. It's a neat biology trick, but more importantly is helps develop a consistent target focus and doesn't let you "cheat" by focusing on the dot.

    All that said, I can still shoot irons, and I still feel adequately equipped with an iron-sighted pistol. The dot isn't a necessity by any means, nor does it replace proper fundamentals, but it does make getting a sight picture easier.
     

    cedartop

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    I’m sure I would have shot that one eye closed! And probably missed.

    Your statement about standards got me wondering why - if you watch the x games, wrestling, any kind of extreme sport humans have progressed massively towards doing better things…

    Maybe I haven’t learned the high standards…

    I know there’s some stuff in the drills thread that I’ve been meaning to study, as it seemed very challenging
    There's shooting and then there is shooting. There is no doubt todays top Practical Pistol champions have raised the bar by leaps and bounds and have dragged regular people like me along. I can't count the number of times I have heard a former or current SF guy say he tried his first competition and got his butt handed to him. Some continue on and improve, and some can't take the hit to their ego.

    As to not being able to buy skill. I like to say you can't buy skill, but you can buy performance. Gear may not make you a better shooter but it can make you shoot better. Lets look at Bianchi Cup/NRA Action pistol or whatever CMP is going to call it. This is a sport requiring a balance of speed and accuracy. The guys winning the iron sight division are great shooters, but they are not beating the guys winning the optics divisions. Heck, that is why there are divisions. If 2 race car drivers have equal skill but one has a faster car (assuming it is reliable) the one with the faster car is going to win.
     
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