Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[actaeon277]

https://thepostmillennial.com/antifa-rioters-shoot-through-windows-of-veteran-owned-portland-cafe

 

[Alpo]

Ahh. Now they are shooting.

They want to play Balkans, let's play Balkans.

 

[Mikey1911]

Ahh. Now they are shooting.

They want to play Balkans, let's play Balkans.

Brother, they are​ asking for it!

 

[rvb]

Ahh. Now they are shooting.

They want to play Balkans, let's play Balkans.

They’ve BEEN shooting for months now. this isn’t new. First example to come to mind is at least a couple times into vehicles the mobs have surrounded, with people inside... one driver shot in the arm. And is shooting into a business worse than setting it on fire? Burning a police precinct with officers still inside? Assault with bats or skateboards or bricks? Molotov cocktails? Kicking someone to death? Knife attacks? These have all happened in these “mostly peaceful protests”. I’m glad that people are becoming “woke” to the violence in this insurgency, it’s been going on for what, 140 days now? ... Have seen LOTS of guns out shooting into buildings or cars or random in the air on live-streams. Bats with spikes in them. ... lots of crazy improvised weapons.

The recent violence against the press (or even “press”) is not good. I try to keep up on their tactics via all the live-streams available, but it’s getting harder to get a view into (and behind the scenes of) the riots... of course, they figured out police (local and federal) were doing the same thing...

confrontations and shootings like this Denver case are going to become more common; worse before it gets better. Maybe the cold of winter will help, at least in the more northern parts of the country. I’m afraid soon we’ll hear a report of 50 dead and a hundred wounded after both sides open up on each other at one of these “counter protests.” The country is at the top of a slippery, angry, social-media-fed, insurgent slope... And both sides are walking around armed ready to “step up”.

 

[Route 45]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-cop-car-fire-cops-inside-arrest

 

[NKBJ]

Relax. It comes to your town or not.

Oh, if only I'd bought that 50-95 lever action when I had the chance!

 

[NKBJ]

Just something to throw out there.
How many more trillions do you think are going to be pumped out in short order?
Do you think violent acts aren't going to take place to keep you from dwelling on it?
There's got to be something on the evening snews.

 

[Leadeye]

Relax. It comes to your town or not.

Oh, if only I'd bought that 50-95 lever action when I had the chance!

Those Winchester 1876 rifles do hit hard. One of T.R.s favorites when he was a young man.

 

[OakRiver]

Dolloff charged with second-degree murder
https://coloradosun.com/2020/10/15/matthew-dolloff-second-degree-murder/

 

[Kutnupe14]

Dolloff charged with second-degree murder
https://coloradosun.com/2020/10/15/matthew-dolloff-second-degree-murder/

I’m betting he beats that.

 

[KG1]

I’m betting he beats that.

I'm betting he wishes you were on the jury.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'm betting he wishes you were on the jury.

Yep, because I don’t need to be politically or culturally aligned with a person to determine if their self-defense shooting was actually self-defense.

 

[jamil]

Yep, because I don’t need to be politically or culturally aligned with a person to determine if their self-defense shooting was actually self-defense.

I’m willing to give Dolloff a fair shake. I just don’t see anything that would have made me draw on Keltner. Assuming Dolloff is an actor in good faith, from his perspective, he’s there to protect his client. He sees a guy who is obviously agitated from his encounter with the BLM guy. He’s holding a can of mace and walking aggressively towards the client. It’s reasonable to step in front of Keltner, and put his hands out in front, and ask him to stop, and then try to deescalate.

But it looked like he put his hands on Keltner, which would escalate things more, which is what appears to have happened. Keltner slapped him. And from the image sequence, it did not look like Keltner made any sudden moves like he was going for a gun. His left hand struck Dolloff, and the image sequence showed the follow through. He couldn’t have been going for a gun with his left. His right hand was occupied with the mace, which it looked like he was just starting to bring up, as Dolloff started to draw his weapon.

I’m trying to see it, but I just don’t see anything there that would have made me draw. And I get that we’re seeing a sequence of photoes that we can analyze afterwards, far outside of the time domain in which the events occurred. But I try to imagine myself in that time, In Dolloff’s position, with the most charitable interpretation of the facts. I don’t see Keltner reaching for a gun as Dolloff claimed.

Would you have drawn and fired having the same information that everyone else has? I really hope not. And iff Dolloff was reasonably in fear for his life, the defense will have to bring a lot more facts into evidence than we have now. It’s not ideological desire that brings me to that conclusion. Maybe there are more facts than the photos show. But if I’m on the jury, I’m going to be thinking as someone who carries a gun regularly, would I, and should I have drawn and fired. So far, no. I don’t think he should have been reasonably in fear for his or his client’s life. Especially if he had opportunities to deescalate.

 

[KG1]

I’m willing to give Dolloff a fair shake. I just don’t see anything that would have made me draw on Keltner. Assuming Dolloff is an actor in good faith, from his perspective, he’s there to protect his client. He sees a guy who is obviously agitated from his encounter with the BLM guy. He’s holding a can of mace and walking aggressively towards the client. It’s reasonable to step in front of Keltner, and put his hands out in front, and ask him to stop, and then try to deescalate.

But it looked like he put his hands on Keltner, which would escalate things more, which is what appears to have happened. Keltner slapped him. And from the image sequence, it did not look like Keltner made any sudden moves like he was going for a gun. His left hand struck Dolloff, and the image sequence showed the follow through. He couldn’t have been going for a gun with his left. His right hand was occupied with the mace, which it looked like he was just starting to bring up, as Dolloff started to draw his weapon.

I’m trying to see it, but I just don’t see anything there that would have made me draw. And I get that we’re seeing a sequence of photoes that we can analyze afterwards, far outside of the time domain in which the events occurred. But I try to imagine myself in that time, In Dolloff’s position, with the most charitable interpretation of the facts. I don’t see Keltner reaching for a gun as Dolloff claimed.

Would you have drawn and fired having the same information that everyone else has? I really hope not. And iff Dolloff was reasonably in fear for his life, the defense will have to bring a lot more facts into evidence than we have now. It’s not ideological desire that brings me to that conclusion. Maybe there are more facts than the photos show. But if I’m on the jury, I’m going to be thinking as someone who carries a gun regularly, would I, and should I have drawn and fired. So far, no. I don’t think he should have been reasonably in fear for his or his client’s life. Especially if he had opportunities to deescalate.

This is how I see it as well. Nothing ideological about it. From my perspective purely based on what I've seen it did'nt appear to be justified to me. Others disagree according to the way they see it. But I will readily admit that I'm not privy to ALL the evidence. He should have a fair trial.

 

[NKBJ]

I'm still thinking that Doloff did what he had already worked out, how to do it and get by with it, but that he wasn't good in the, ah hmm, execution of his plan.

 

[Alpo]

I'm interested to see whether there was a conspiracy to incite violence among the producer, security guy and loudmouth #BGM dude.

If so, I'd put the co-conspirators on trial for felony murder. Doloff looks guilty at present. Perhaps there are mitigating facts not as yet presented. I doubt it, however.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I’m willing to give Dolloff a fair shake. I just don’t see anything that would have made me draw on Keltner. Assuming Dolloff is an actor in good faith, from his perspective, he’s there to protect his client. He sees a guy who is obviously agitated from his encounter with the BLM guy. He’s holding a can of mace and walking aggressively towards the client. It’s reasonable to step in front of Keltner, and put his hands out in front, and ask him to stop, and then try to deescalate.

But it looked like he put his hands on Keltner, which would escalate things more, which is what appears to have happened. Keltner slapped him. And from the image sequence, it did not look like Keltner made any sudden moves like he was going for a gun. His left hand struck Dolloff, and the image sequence showed the follow through. He couldn’t have been going for a gun with his left. His right hand was occupied with the mace, which it looked like he was just starting to bring up, as Dolloff started to draw his weapon.

I’m trying to see it, but I just don’t see anything there that would have made me draw. And I get that we’re seeing a sequence of photoes that we can analyze afterwards, far outside of the time domain in which the events occurred. But I try to imagine myself in that time, In Dolloff’s position, with the most charitable interpretation of the facts. I don’t see Keltner reaching for a gun as Dolloff claimed.

Would you have drawn and fired having the same information that everyone else has? I really hope not. And iff Dolloff was reasonably in fear for his life, the defense will have to bring a lot more facts into evidence than we have now. It’s not ideological desire that brings me to that conclusion. Maybe there are more facts than the photos show. But if I’m on the jury, I’m going to be thinking as someone who carries a gun regularly, would I, and should I have drawn and fired. So far, no. I don’t think he should have been reasonably in fear for his or his client’s life. Especially if he had opportunities to deescalate.

A guy armed with a gun and holding pepper spray, after getting in a heated argument, approaches and threatens violence against a guy you’re tasked to protect, slaps you. And you’re ok with it? Better you to turn the other cheek, and get slapped again, than me.

 

[Kutnupe14]

This is how I see it as well. Nothing ideological about it. From my perspective purely based on what I've seen it did'nt appear to be justified to me. Others disagree according to the way they see it. But I will readily admit that I'm not privy to ALL the evidence. He should have a fair trial.

Just out of curiosity, other than reaching for his gun, what would he have had to do to get you to draw down on him. If it were a punch rather than a slap, would that meet your requirement?

 

[KG1]

Just out of curiosity, other than reaching for his gun, what would he have had to do to get you to draw down on him. If it were a punch rather than a slap, would that meet your requirement?

I don't necessarily say that I would be justified even if a punch was thrown. There was a separation after the slap and from what I saw Keltner did'nt appear to make another advance to escalate. So no, in this situation I don't feel Keltner's action justified a drawdown from my perspective. I saw nothing that Keltner did that amounted to the use of any kind of deadly force on his part that warranted the use of deadly force by Doloff in kind.

 

[chipbennett]

Yep, because I don’t need to be politically or culturally aligned with a person to determine if their self-defense shooting was actually self-defense.

Perhaps you missed my step-by-step analysis. Regardless, given the entire context, how do you justify his use of force as self-defense? Please be specific.