Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[Egldriver]

I have shot thousands of rounds of optic and iron sights in competition and have the found the following:

Red dots fail. At first a lot seems to be getting better. Either battery connection, internal failure of a circuit or even the plate coming loose or bending ( I know that seems impossible but I’ve seen it). I have a leupold delta point pro and have had no problem. I think the RMRs have a good track record. They are both pretty big for carry.

Red dots are way easier to shoot past 10 yards but that equalizes inside that and for closer the iron sights are faster.

Strong hand/weak hand can be difficult because it’s easy to lose the dot. This is the major training point. Muscle memory needs to be changed to make shooting a dot intuitive. I don’t use co witness sights but they would probably help with all of the above.

I don’t agree that someone would be proficient quickly with a red dot. It takes training and some time.

Optics class is dominating shooting sports but it’s not a one size fits all for sure.

 

[kaveman]

We're trying to help and prevent you from going down the trail most of us started down. Dovetail mounts are junk and won't hold a zero. The ammo you waste learning will cost more than the money you save and whatever you spend on the dovetail will be a loss.

I've gone through the 'cheap' red dots. Most lie broken in a box but one has held up for several hundred rounds on a .22. I wouldn't buy it again, but it has held up so far. Compared to a Holosun 407CO for $180 it's a no-brainer,....I'd definitely go with the Holosun. If you go with an M&P CORE or a GLOCK MOS you can slap a good quality dot on the pistol for under $200. You'll need suppressor height sights which you claim you don't want and it won't have what I consider to be the perfect mount or the perfect reticle,.....which could be had for $400(I've bought several red ACSS for under $300 by shopping the sales, plus a $75 mill job), but it'll still be an excellent sight with a good mount.

I've tried to go cheap. I'm sitting here looking at two 'used' RMRs that I got for $200 each. Total waste of four hundred bucks,....they're unusable. The glass is ground from 10yrs of wiping away dirt in the sandbox and the dots(tritium and lightbar only)are so dim I have to press a flashlight against the lightbar to even see them. Have two more Trijicon rifle sights that I bought as LE trades and they're both whacked in the adjustments($300 apiece). I could at least send those two in to Trijicon for service, but from all I've seen it would be cheaper to just replace them with new units. Trijicon service charges are insane.

So I've wasted close to two grand 'learning' about 'cheap' red dots. Now that I know a little bit and have made most of my serious mistakes I've spent another four grand just this year setting up five M&Ps with Holosuns. That seems to be right up your alley so I'm sharing that with you because there was a lot of expense even in that project that I wouldn't do again. I'd have slides milled and stay away from plates. I'm thrilled with the Holosun ACSS reticle and to some extent thrilled with the 407CO as a cheap(er) option.

 

[kaveman]

I don’t agree that someone would be proficient quickly with a red dot. It takes training and some time.

Watch a bunch of Holosun ACSS videos on youtube posted by trainers like Aaron Cowen, Jedi, or even Yeager. They all make the same claim,....a new dot shooter using the ACSS seems almost like cheating,....and cheating is good.

The common training line is that you have to get in 10,000 reps with a dot to be 'skilled'. Does that mean 10,000 reps with your dominant hand and another 10,000 reps weak hand? And another 10,000 reps from flat on you back and 10,000 from rollover prone shooting from under a car? Strong/weak side on those too? 'Cause that's a lot of reps.

You could easily find yourself defending from one of those positions. Much less likely I'd think to be squaring off to the target and shooting it out High Noon style.

Reps are good,......I'd rather have some piece of equipment that seems almost like cheating myself.

 

[Dean C.]

A dovetail mount and the least expensive decent red dot optic would not be lifesaving equipment for me. It would be a test bed to see if I like/want a red dot. An inexpensive, temporary means of experimention. I think I expressed that clearly before.

Milling a slide and adding an ACSS red dot is a $500+ investment. Not everyone has that kind of play money, and I didn't realize INGO was a country club for the firearms elite.
IF the red dot seems worthwhile for me based on cheap experimentation, I'll find a way to do it right. And if I do that, I'll move the cheap experimental version to a nightstand weapon.

Lol , country club for the firearms elite. Everyone here is recommending the cheapest option to actually have a good set up. No one on here is saying you need to buy a 3k 2011 to shoot a dot, hell no one is even recommending the more expensive dots like the 509 series or the ACRO P-2 or Steiner MPS the current hotness.

When multiple people from the "elite country club" are giving the same advice it might be smart and cheaper in the long run to listen.

Kinda reminds me of a guy I work with (good job more than $30 an hour) only ever buys Taurus and Anderson guns and he cannot for the life of him understand why his guns won't consistently work. It took me 4 months to talk him into a P365 with a 507k and now he has seen the light.

Now you want to discuss actually expensive firearms I am definitely listening. People who are into guns as a hobby generally have money since ammo or guns are not cheap, never ever go AR-15.com you will get called a poor there.

 

[MCgrease08]

Watch a bunch of Holosun ACSS videos on youtube posted by trainers like Aaron Cowen, Jedi, or even Yeager. They all make the same claim,....a new dot shooter using the ACSS seems almost like cheating,....and cheating is good.

The ACSS Vulcan cuts down the learning curve for sure. I have one and can attest to that from first hand experience. It's like a cheat code, but it's far from automatic.

The great thing is that it really helps you understand almost immediately where you need to adjust your grip and presentation to get the dot consistently in the window. It's made my dry fire and draw stroke practice much more effective because I can use that big outer ring to see immediately where I need to adjust my point of aim, or just turn my wrist slightly. It's stupid simple to make those minor corrections and immediately get the chevron where it needs to be without a ton of wasted movement of my hands or head.

I've always struggled a bit with my grip and the Vulcan has helped me really diagnose what each element of my grip is doing and how adjusting pressure at different contact points affects dot placement.

All in all, it makes practice very repeatable and consistent. I feel like I am building that muscle memory faster.

 

[kaveman]

My problem with the theory of muscle memory and reps is that it's only going to work if you don't change your gear and I'm a gun whore. I have literally owned thousands of guns so there's no way I'm going to develop to the point that I'm really good with any one of them.

I've owned far more than most, but in reality I'm a bottom-feeder. No way I have enough money to even venture in to the higher tier stuff,.....that stuff is for the guy who has the money but doesn't want to own a bunch of guns. I buy a bunch of low-end junk and occasionally turn up a nice piece by chance. Sadly, if it's really nice I never manage to hang on to it for long. Imagine being called an elitist for recommending a Holosun!

 

[Dean C.]

I can’t see it but not sure it’s worth seeing…that face you made…

Just a new MK3 version of the 5.7 that comes factory set up for red dots. Nothing to see here

 

[ditcherman]

Just a new MK3 version of the 5.7 that comes factory set up for red dots. Nothing to see here

Thanks for the link!

5.7 is 9mm wife’s boyfriend.
Does everything better, at least on paper. Haha.

Also, found my next gun probably.

 

[2AOK]

We're trying to help and prevent you from going down the trail most of us started down. Dovetail mounts are junk and won't hold a zero. The ammo you waste learning will cost more than the money you save and whatever you spend on the dovetail will be a loss.

I've gone through the 'cheap' red dots. Most lie broken in a box but one has held up for several hundred rounds on a .22. I wouldn't buy it again, but it has held up so far. Compared to a Holosun 407CO for $180 it's a no-brainer,....I'd definitely go with the Holosun. If you go with an M&P CORE or a GLOCK MOS you can slap a good quality dot on the pistol for under $200. You'll need suppressor height sights which you claim you don't want and it won't have what I consider to be the perfect mount or the perfect reticle,.....which could be had for $400(I've bought several red ACSS for under $300 by shopping the sales, plus a $75 mill job), but it'll still be an excellent sight with a good mount.

I've tried to go cheap. I'm sitting here looking at two 'used' RMRs that I got for $200 each. Total waste of four hundred bucks,....they're unusable. The glass is ground from 10yrs of wiping away dirt in the sandbox and the dots(tritium and lightbar only)are so dim I have to press a flashlight against the lightbar to even see them. Have two more Trijicon rifle sights that I bought as LE trades and they're both whacked in the adjustments($300 apiece). I could at least send those two in to Trijicon for service, but from all I've seen it would be cheaper to just replace them with new units. Trijicon service charges are insane.

So I've wasted close to two grand 'learning' about 'cheap' red dots. Now that I know a little bit and have made most of my serious mistakes I've spent another four grand just this year setting up five M&Ps with Holosuns. That seems to be right up your alley so I'm sharing that with you because there was a lot of expense even in that project that I wouldn't do again. I'd have slides milled and stay away from plates. I'm thrilled with the Holosun ACSS reticle and to some extent thrilled with the 407CO as a cheap(er) option.

Thank you, kaveman. I appreciate the specifics, and your further cautions regarding dovetail mounts and cheap optics. I've read lots of positive online reviews for both, but everybody here is "thumbs down on them" so there must something to that. I'll do more research without commenting here unless/until I find a "surefire" way of testing on the cheap.

Man! $4000 to set up five relatively inexpensive pistols... I'm sticking with M&P M2.0 pistols, and will likely end up with several variants in 9mm. But no way can I foot the bill for adding optics. Maybe for ONE pistol, but I want my defensive pistols to be "the same pistol," so just one red dot is not a good solution.

Again, thanks for these details and cautions.

 

[2AOK]

When multiple people from the "elite country club" are giving the same advice it might be smart and cheaper in the long run to listen.

Dean, if I were bucks up I might buy the best red dot optic available (within reason) and mount it directly to a freshly milled slide. But I'm self employed and launching a new "creative endeavor" that is as financially precarious as it is potentially dangerous. Personal security is a real concern, and I need more than one pistol. I want them to be "the same gun" in hand, but cannot bear the cost of outfitting them with ACSS red dots. Nor would I choose to do that at this time because I think better technology is around the corner.

Kinda reminds me of a guy I work with (good job more than $30 an hour) only ever buys Taurus and Anderson guns and he cannot for the life of him understand why his guns won't consistently work. It took me 4 months to talk him into a P365 with a 507k and now he has seen the light.

I hear ya. WHEN I have a more reliable income, I'll upgrade a lot of things. =D

 

[DadSmith]

If you have bad astigmatism go for a circle dot reticle. It seems to offset the problem of making the dot flare. I have bad astigmatism, and I found this out over time.

 

[Dean C.]

^^^
Best of luck with your business !!! Agreed on optics getting better, my Springfield Operator is about to get sent to Nighthawk for an IOS Cut and an Aimpoint P-2.

It took be the better part of two years to get my pistols switched over to dots , and it is definitely not cheap. Honestly there were a couple guns I just said screw it sold off the "old" gun and got a optics ready model.

Also as others have said dry fire is fantastic for begining with a RDS really helps with presentation and muscle memory. I recommend putting on a movie and using the bad guy as the target. Col. Tavington from The Patriot is a favorite of mine lol.

Now slightly off track thought , I find it interesting that generally people who have no handgun experience at all seem to pick up the dot way faster that seasoned shooters who are used to irons.

 

[kaveman]

Man! $4000 to set up five relatively inexpensive pistols... I'm sticking with M&P M2.0 pistols, and will likely end up with several variants in 9mm. But no way can I foot the bill for adding optics. Maybe for ONE pistol, but I want my defensive pistols to be "the same pistol," so just one red dot is not a good solution.

Again, thanks for these details and cautions.

Actually, that's cheap, I'm one of the poors and I'm a 'professional' bargain shopper. Only bought one of the M&Ps new for about a hundred under going rate, the rest were 'used' and three of the Holosuns were purchased used as well. If you search GB religiously you can find the deals. My first used M&P was a 2.0 .40 Pro Series CORE for $399 and the second was a 2.0 Compact optics ready 9mm for $329. The deals are there, but it all adds up quick. Take a $400 pistol and add a $300 optic and start adding tax and shipping on all of it and there's just no way to get into it cheap. I just can't recommend trying to go cheaper.

Fwiw, if you're getting reviews from places like Amazon and eBay or any retailer, be aware that those 'reviews' are mostly bought and paid for. For the most part, bad reviews don't stay on the sites and vendors give out product for 'good' reviews. I've had vendors just contact me out of the blue to send me items for review. I did a couple of 'honest' reviews for Amazon because I was pretty sure the item was going to deserve a recommendation based on previous versions that I already owned. (plate carrier and bipod) That may have been a mistake on my part because now I get constant offers for new models that I've been turning down. I don't want to become a 'professional reviewer'.

There are some specific youtube review channels that do a good job servicing the 'value' market. I'd trust any of them before I'd give any credence to Amazon/eBay/Vendor site reviews.

 

[2AOK]

If you have bad astigmatism go for a circle dot reticle. It seems to offset the problem of making the dot flare. I have bad astigmatism, and I found this out over time.

View attachment 218951

Astigmatism is a factor, and so is the budget. ACSS is too expensive for now, so a Circle-Dot reticle is probably the right choice if I do this soon. Thanks for giving me/us the benefit of your experience. I hope you didn't spend too much in learning this the hard way.

 

[deo62]

The ACSS is in stock at primary arms for $319 right now

 

[kaveman]

I think you've gotten the impression that the ACSS reticle is expensive. It's not. I shop used and since it's only been available for about a year it's just hard to find a deal on one used. And I also suffer from astigmatism and have found that the green reticle works best for me so that really makes it difficult to find one used. Still, I've found two greens on ebay for well under $300 shipped within the last month. My first two were new from Optics Planet but with a discount code and free shipping even those were under $350.

But just comparing apples to apples, the ACSS costs ten dollars more than the circle/dot.

Holosun HS507C-X2 1x 2 MOA Dot Reflex Red Dot Sight, Color: Black, Wolf Grey, Battery Type: CR1632 Lithium w/ Free S&H — 6 models

Shop Holosun HS507C-X2 1x 2 MOA Dot Reflex Red Dot Sight | 4.8 Star Rating on 278 Reviews for Holosun HS507C-X2 1x 2 MOA Dot Reflex Red Dot Sight Best Rated +...

www.opticsplanet.com

Now the 'other' recommendation I've made is the 407co with the 8moa circle. I've got both a circle/dot in a 509T and the 8moa circle in the 407co here with me right now and of the two, I'd go with the 407co. I can turn the brightness down on both of them to make them appear sharp and still pick them up easily due to the size. But the 8moa circle is less 'busy' and lets me shoot. The circle/dot is just too much stuff in the window. And the thing that makes the circle/dot 507c a $300 sight is the reticle selectibility. You can choose 2moa dot, 32moa circle, or dot and circle together. The 407co is exactly the same sight without selectibility,....just an 8moa circle. That selectibility I don't want isn't worth an extra $120 to me.

The 407co has been in and out of stock for $180 at PSA. Currently out of stock, but it's available here for just a couple of bucks more,.....

try here

https://gritrsports.com/holosun-hs407co-v2-classic-red-dot-sight-hs407co-x2

 

[kaveman]

The ACSS is in stock at primary arms for $319 right now

Same at Optics Planet, Midway and several others. The green versions are the only ones hard to find.

 

[2AOK]

Actually, that's cheap, I'm one of the poors and I'm a 'professional' bargain shopper. Only bought one of the M&Ps new for about a hundred under going rate, the rest were 'used' and three of the Holosuns were purchased used as well. If you search GB religiously you can find the deals. My first used M&P was a 2.0 .40 Pro Series CORE for $399 and the second was a 2.0 Compact optics ready 9mm for $329. The deals are there, but it all adds up quick. Take a $400 pistol and add a $300 optic and start adding tax and shipping on all of it and there's just no way to get into it cheap. I just can't recommend trying to go cheaper.

Yes, it's easy to become hyper-focused on "saving money" on the current purchase while overlooking the overall cost of what has become an obsession. We're like women addicted to designer handbags and shoes on The Shopping Network. Ugh.

I don't own a lot of firearms, and don't intend to. I don't frequent gun shops either, and never buy at "convenience store" prices. By that I mean: people walk in, fill out the yellow form and walk out with their new toy...often getting hosed in the process because they pay no attention to current street prices.

I never buy used at any price, unless I know and respect the seller. I've seen people absolutely trash their firearms, then touch them up and sell them with a smile to unsuspecting buyers. Yikes.

Fwiw, if you're getting reviews from places like Amazon and eBay or any retailer, be aware that those 'reviews' are mostly bought and paid for. For the most part, bad reviews don't stay on the sites and vendors give out product for 'good' reviews. I've had vendors just contact me out of the blue to send me items for review. I did a couple of 'honest' reviews for Amazon because I was pretty sure the item was going to deserve a recommendation based on previous versions that I already owned. (plate carrier and bipod) That may have been a mistake on my part because now I get constant offers for new models that I've been turning down. I don't want to become a 'professional reviewer'.

Thanks for the warning about paid-for reviews from large online retail sources. I'm pretty good at weeding out the BS, but like you say, there's a LOT of BS out there.

There are some specific youtube review channels that do a good job servicing the 'value' market. I'd trust any of them before I'd give any credence to Amazon/eBay/Vendor site reviews.

That's what I am! A VALUE-MARKET CONSUMER. =D
I'm resourceful and can usually make do with less. It's a blessing, and it's amazing what you can accomplish using "value market" tools, materials and products-in-general when you think outside the box.

Been watching YT video reviews lately regarding the specific guns I'm interested in. Some sources are consistently GREAT; I seek out their opinions and enjoy watching them. Others are just "YooToobers" trying to score subscribers and views by glomming onto the public's recent interest in firearms ownership.

THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE YOUTUBE SOURCES FOR CCW INFO. She's actually well informed within her niche, but if she weren't, I'd still enjoy watching. All kidding aside, I'm encouraged to see American females who really do 'get it' and actively promote 2A Liberty to other women. Long Live the Republic.

 

[2AOK]

The ACSS is in stock at primary arms for $319 right now

Thank you. My idea of expensive is...uh...different from everyone else's here.

Your signature line, "Here kitty, kitty" cracks me up! =D
I no longer have that problem.

 

[2AOK]

I think you've gotten the impression that the ACSS reticle is expensive. It's not. [...] just comparing apples to apples, the ACSS costs ten dollars more than the circle/dot.

Yeah, I really have to find time for researching these options as a potential buyer.would. Considering all the options and mfrs, it's daunting. Thanks for clarification.

Now the 'other' recommendation I've made is the 407co with the 8moa circle. [...] the 8moa circle is less 'busy' and lets me shoot. The circle/dot is just too much stuff in the window.
The thing that makes the circle/dot 507c a $300 sight is the reticle selectibility. You can choose 2moa dot, 32moa circle, or dot and circle together.

I think I'd want the selectable reticle, but maybe not... No experience, so I don't know. I really need to investigate further. And if ACSS generally adds just $10, I'll study up on the advantages of that configuration for sure.