New BATF ruling on stabilizing braces today

[Route 45]

This whole conversation is unfair.

I see the point @Goodcat is making. How many of you talking a big talk about non compliance are going to have his back if he decides to keep his braced pistol unregistered in defiance of the ATF's whim?

I seem to remember a few different threads popping up on here about people who've been arrested for defying gun laws: some guy who was arrested because he bought and sold a few guns without an FFL and the ATF decided he was doing it for profit; some LEO who used his position to get his buddy a machine gun and the ATF decided he wasn't in line with the NFA; the guy in Florida who got arrested for making an illegal SBR and letting an ATF informant shoot it, etc, etc. Thing is, I don't remember a single voice in any of those threads supporting those people; they were universally called morons and the general consensus seemed to be either they were getting their just deserts, or in the best case, that the law was unjust but they were still stupid for breaking it, or at least for getting caught.

Point is, it's easy to talk about non-compliance abstractly, but I've yet to see anyone give support for somebody in a concrete situation.

Of course, I see the other side of it, too, which is that if there are people on here who are in defiance of the ATF, and who would genuinely support others who are too, they can't talk about it here, nor should they. That's what makes this conversation unfair.

If you want to advocate defiance, INGO just isn't the place to do it. We're not allowed to advocate resisting the government outright (and with good reason, too.) Online we're all in compliance with the government, and if you're not in compliance in real life, well, trying to provoke you into saying so would be stupid and pointless.

So if you want to have these conversations have them face to face with friends you can trust. An online forum just isn't the place for it, because trying to convince strangers behind a screen to defy the government is always going to look like posturing and empty bravado, no matter how you try to slice it.

I'm not advocating for defiance, each person is free to react to new legislation as they see fit. I am just commenting on the unjust nature of the current situation we find ourselves in. Good, decent people being categorized as felons for owning something that the government has deemed perfectly legal for 10 years.

I just posed rhetorical questions, so you don't need to answer if you suddenly find yourself in a country where you have to be careful what you say on the internet.

Some people don't care about pistol braces and feel that this isn't the hill to "die on," so to speak. That's fine, and a reasonable position. Easy enough to remedy anyway, if you don't want to be on a registry or be a felon. Take the brace off and wait to see how this plays out in the courts. If it's an AR platform, throw a $250 16" upper on it. Viola, new rifle. Until they deem even that a machine gun, of course.

That's not the point. The point is, this type of arbritary ******** from the government only serves to create a populace with less and less respect for the rule of law. When you have law enforcement officials in our neighboring state in a vast majority of their counties openly telling their governor to go **** himself with his infringements on the 2nd Amendment, I call that a clue.

Again, I'm not advocating that anyone take any action one way or the other. This is a discussion forum, so that's what I'm here for. I'm just making observations. One of those observations is that the federal government should not be shocked when the same disrespect and outright defiance and massive non-compliance shown to their laws regarding immigration and marijuana is seen in their attempts to criminalize decent, law-abiding people in other subject areas.

As for discussing what happens if this goes beyond pistol braces, we don't have to talk about that if you don't want to. I already know how that goes...

Massive noncompliance with SAFE Act - Hudson Valley One

In January 2013, as the nation still mourned the Sandy Hook massacre, New York State enacted one of the nation’s strictest gun control laws. But three and a half years later, state records obtained after a lengthy court battle show that a key provision of the New York Safe Ammunition and...

hudsonvalleyone.com

 

[Goodcat]

I'm not advocating for defiance, each person is free to react to new legislation as they see fit. I am just commenting on the unjust nature of the current situation we find ourselves in. Good, decent people being categorized as felons for owning something that the government has deemed perfectly legal for 10 years.

I just posed rhetorical questions, so you don't need to answer if you suddenly find yourself in a country where you have to be careful what you say on the internet.

Some people don't care about pistol braces and feel that this isn't the hill to "die on," so to speak. That's fine, and a reasonable position. Easy enough to remedy anyway, if you don't want to be on a registry or be a felon. Take the brace off and wait to see how this plays out in the courts. If it's an AR platform, throw a $250 16" upper on it. Viola, new rifle. Until they deem even that a machine gun, of course.

That's not the point. The point is, this type of arbritary ******** from the government only serves to create a populace with less and less respect for the rule of law. When you have law enforcement officials in our neighboring state in a vast majority of their counties openly telling their governor to go **** himself with his infringements on the 2nd Amendment, I call that a clue.

Again, I'm not advocating that anyone take any action one way or the other. This is a discussion forum, so that's what I'm here for. I'm just making observations. One of those observations is that the federal government should not be shocked when the same disrespect and outright defiance and massive non-compliance shown to their laws regarding immigration and marijuana is seen in their attempts to criminalize decent, law-abiding people in other subject areas.

As for discussing what happens if this goes beyond pistol braces, we don't have to talk about that if you don't want to. I already know how that goes...

Massive noncompliance with SAFE Act - Hudson Valley One

In January 2013, as the nation still mourned the Sandy Hook massacre, New York State enacted one of the nation’s strictest gun control laws. But three and a half years later, state records obtained after a lengthy court battle show that a key provision of the New York Safe Ammunition and...

hudsonvalleyone.com

Oh yes, we can all agree that this all is absolutely BS, and the ATF absolutely needs to be abolished. They aren’t regulating crap. They are unjustly attempting to stop law abiding Americans from exercising a God given right that should have not, and shall not be infringed upon, under no basis or logic. The brace ban serves no realistic or consequential reasoning to prevent crime, stop mass shootings, or make anything or anyone safer. It’s a circle power trip circle jerk, plane and simple.

Some ask, “Why should Americans be allowed to own unregulated machine guns, silencers, and SBRs?”, and over here like “Your opinion is of no consequence to the constitution. If they can afford it, they should be allowed to own unregulated fighter jets.”

That being said, I’m not serving 10 in prison and have the rights I do have stripped away.

 

[PRasko]

Okay, I'm not trying to take the other side here, but trying to pretend you haven't had a chance to be noncompliant with the NFA because you weren't around before 1934 is a load of nonsense and you know it. Are you really pretending you don't know how easy it is to make homemade devices that can turn your AR-15 full auto? If you don't, go ahead and google it. If you do google it, though, don't blame me if you get put on a list and have your door kicked in at 3 AM.

You are missing the point entirely.

Most of the people here were born after the ’34 law. So it was NEVER legal for them to do so.

Braces WERE legal, and by edict”unlawfully”, an agency made it illegal.

Completely different scenarios. Apples to oranges here.

If the government tomorrow made your gas car illegal, would you stop driving it?

 

[Cameramonkey]

I'm betting that most people that bought braced pistols don't have any NFA items, and don't want to be on any kind of a registry...thus the purchase of the braced pistol that was perfectly legal for any proper person for, what...the last 10 ****ing years?

The problem is not compliance, the problem is that there has BEEN COMPLIANCE for the last 10 ****ING YEARS to what the ATF deemed perfectly legal. Now this government agency, by arbitrary and capricious whim, deems that items that were purchased legally and with their blessing for the last decade are now magically "unregistered SBRs."

I believe at least one gun rights group has a lawsuit in the pipe covering this for what it is... Arbitrariy and capricious. Issuing multiple rulings over last several years about this and that relating to braces that culminated in where we are today. Yes its legal, no that one isnt. OK, now we think it is. Dont shoulder, OK, you can shoulder, but only if incidental. OK, nevermind, they're ALL illegal.

 

[PRasko]

Lets put this in different context.

1.)Assault weapons should be banned because a few bad apples decide to use them in the commision of a crime…

You comply?

2.)Braces should be registered under the NFA because a few morons shouldered them, thus making it more expensive and difficult for disabled people to use legitimately….

Do you comply?

Spot the difference between these statements.

Exactly.

You people talk all big and bad about being against gun control, but because they throw you a carrot, many see it as a trojan horse, you comply.

Compliance means they will keep chipping away at our rights until EVERYTHING is registered under the NFA or banned.

This is nothing more than a test case to see how many morons they can get to comply.

 

[bwframe]

Lets just use this, (if it actually happens,) as the motivation to get a bill in congress to eliminate the NFA. Part of the bill could include a way to keep true automatic weapons restricted, but the rest of the NFA, as we know it, is baloney.

We need to get our best talking heads, like Guy Relford, to craft talking points to combat the "blood in the streets" crowd. We CANNOT afford to lose the narrative fight right off the bat to the anti's because we COULD NOT explain our point well enough to shine above the dumb rubes they will paint us as.

Our gun rights organizations need to be doing their due diligence in the courts. Actually above and beyond due diligence! There needs to be an injunction against the ATF's order immediately upon filing. Stop that foolish clock that us law abiding folks are rightfully afraid of.

At the same time though, we really need the congressional push to get the NFA eliminated. Our gun rights organizations should have legislation drafted to put in the hands of those like Gaetz, Boebert, MTG, Jordan, Banks, Luna, Massy and many more. Our senator, wannabe governor, needs pushed for his public position on this also!

Our gun rights organizations and our patriot congress critters need to be fundraising on this, big time. Make it or break it for 2024...


.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Lets just use this, (if it actually happens,) as the motivation to get a bill in congress to eliminate the NFA. Part of the bill could include a way to keep true automatic weapons restricted, but the rest of the NFA, as we know it, is baloney.

We need to get our best talking heads, like Guy Relford, to craft talking points to combat the "blood in the streets" crowd. We CANNOT afford to lose the narrative fight right off the bat to the anti's because we COULD NOT explain our point well enough to shine above the dumb rubes they will paint us as.

Our gun rights organizations need to be doing their due diligence in the courts. Actually above and beyond due diligence! At the same time though, we really need the congressional push to get the NFA eliminated.

Our gun rights organizations and our patriot congress critters need to be fundraising on this, big time. Make it or break it for 2024...


.

I posted a post somewhere talking about its abolishment…BRB.

ETA:

Thread 'Bill to Repeal the NFA Submitted'
https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/bill-to-repeal-the-nfa-submitted.531160/

 

[PRasko]

We will never get the NFA abolished. We can’t even get control of the house and senate. What makes you think this will happen?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

We will never get the NFA abolished. We can’t even get control of the house and senate. What makes you think this will happen?

This applies to this meme too. Replace IRS with NFA.

 

[bwframe]

I posted a post somewhere talking about its abolishment…BRB.

ETA:

Thread 'Bill to Repeal the NFA Submitted'
https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/bill-to-repeal-the-nfa-submitted.531160/

Cool. So where is the drafted bill for our legislators?

Where is the link to the draft bill that we send to Braun, Young, Banks, Spartz, etc? The same links that we sent out to ALL of our friends to get the numbers needed to get this going?


.

 

[PRasko]

This applies to this meme too. Replace IRS with NFA.

View attachment 251490

Because the IRS pays their checks, the NFA funds an alphabet agency that doesn’t give them money, that we know of…

 

[firecadet613]

Looks like the clock starts 1/31/2023 for the 120 grace period. Comply or not comply is the question. Each individual has to decide for themselves.

Where did you see the 1/31/2023 date?

 

[bwframe]

We will never get the NFA abolished. We can’t even get control of the house and senate. What makes you think this will happen?

I think people are beginning to learn the hard way that if all "we" do is bitch about the only party that has any semblance of being on the side of 2A, then the anti's will be in charge. Now we see just what those anti's will do with it. Also, this is just the beginning, just ask them and they'll tell you.

So let's push our people to be accountable and act! Bitching about our own, instead of fixing them isn't working, now is it?

A little FYI - This ain't something that will happen over night, this year, or even after we win in 2024. So cool your purity jets. It's gonna take some time to convince the middle ground among us. Step one is to get the language into people's mouths...

...repeal the NFA.
.

 

[xwing]

I assume they are talking about implementation of
26 U.S. Code § 5861(d)
It shall be unlawful for any person
(d)to receive or possess a firearm which is not registered to him in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record

In the statute (and the related definitions), "possess" is not defined. However, it would be quite a stretch to argue that it includes "Constructive Possession".

The ATF does not make law, and there have been no recent changes at all to the underlying statutes. It sounds like in the FAQ that they are changing their official interpretation of that statute above and redefining "possess" differently than they have historically done. If so, it's a huge problem. Violation of the above statue is a felony with up to 10 years in prison. If they plan to prosecute with their "new" definition of the underlying terms, that will ruin many people's lives. It would be good to understand if that is the case.

More news: NSSF contacted ATF regarding that Q&A. Below is ATF's response:
“The Q&A currently listed on the eforms account is incorrect. In this scenario, the registered owner of the NFA weapon is co-located with the firearm and thus no transfer has occurred. However, if the person firing the NFA weapon is prohibited from possessing the firearm there could be a GCA violation. We are working to correct the site as quickly as possible.”
link.

So that's good news. The ATF is not redefining "possession" and making it illegal to let your (non-prohibited) friend shoot your NFA item in your presence.

 

[Gaffer]

This applies to this meme too. Replace IRS with NFA.

Here ya go:

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

 

[Mgderf]

More news: NSSF contacted ATF regarding that Q&A. Below is ATF's response:
“The Q&A currently listed on the eforms account is incorrect. In this scenario, the registered owner of the NFA weapon is co-located with the firearm and thus no transfer has occurred. However, if the person firing the NFA weapon is prohibited from possessing the firearm there could be a GCA violation. We are working to correct the site as quickly as possible.”
link.

So that's good news. The ATF is not redefining "possession" and making it illegal to let your (non-prohibited) friend shoot your NFA item in your presence.

Not nearly enough and completely unacceptable.
Retract the entire thing AND apologize to the American public for the accidental early release of the ATF's idea of an April fool's joke.
No purple intended or implied.

 

[shootersix]

We will never get the NFA abolished. We can’t even get control of the house and senate. What makes you think this will happen?

When the republicans had the house the senate and the presidency, they couldn’t even get suppressors removed from the nfa!

 

[Cameramonkey]

Once again. We cant aim for abolishing the ATF. No way that is going to happen. Baby steps.

What is manageable is to roll back their power:
-Pass legislation (or get SCOTUS to rule) that they may no longer pass rules on their own AS APPOINTED AND UN-ELECTED BUREAUCRATS WITH NO LEGAL AUTHORITY TO PASS LAWS. Make them submit proposed legislation to congress to be passed per constitutional mandates.
-Kill ALL non NFA/GCA LEGISLATION rules that are unconstitutional because they are rules not laws. (bump stock ban, brace bans, etc.)
-Seek to remove suppressors from NFA because they are not a threat to public safety, and will ENHANCE hearing safety if allowed to be purchased over the counter. This will require a massive education campaign to squash the belief that hollywood portrays.
-THEN maybe look at removing SBRs from the NFA. (long shot)

KILLING THE ATF OUTRIGHT IS A NON STARTER. Full stop. We will have to dismantle it piece by piece. Rule by rule.
And think about it. Their purview would have to shift to the FBI and/or IRS. Do you trust them any more?

 

[bwframe]

When the republicans had the house the senate and the presidency, they couldn’t even get suppressors removed from the nfa!

That was six years ago. I'm not defending the lack of action, but it was a drastically different time. There were seemingly no threats at that time to the 2A, (other than Wayne's wardrobe costs.) Our own actions in allowing our only 2A lobby to congress to squander are as much at fault for inaction as anything.

The anti's have brought this fight to us. We need to counter their actions legally and take back ground that should not have been lost in the first place.

If this doesn't energize us to act, then nothing will.

We might as well just go ahead and keep whining, as that has worked so well, eh?