Maybe Mas will cover this.

[Trapper Jim]

BAD GUY: “Give me all your money”
DOT Citizen “Just let me check my dot and then I will make ready”

Mas lessons learned:

Lasers, WML, Dots, slide cuts, 26 round mags, and cargo pants are no substitute for learning how to defend yourself on the streets.

Result: Victim bleeds out from pipe upside the head. Nearby is his Business Blaster on the pavement dot flickering.

Solutions: Excepting Professional Applications, leave the dot on the range for play time. Master the basics first before advancing to an acquired skill set.

Good luck.

 

[Sigblitz]

Should have had a 5 shot snubby.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't get the premise.

Obviously software matters more, but nothing precludes someone from having sufficient training and a dot.

Nothing precludes the use of co-witnessed irons if your dot fails.

If you get knocked down in mud or snow and the lens is completely occluded then, yes, you've lost your dot and iron. At that point you're close enough someone knocked you down and are you getting a good sight picture anyway with that scenario?

Don't suck. Solves a lot of problems. Including dealing with a malfunctioning optic.

 

[wcd]

Not being argumentative here by any means not intending to to come across that way. But if people are paying attention a lot of these scenarios can be avoided. How did good guy come to be in the position he was in?

Why on earth would he be relying on a pistol optic to begin with? Someone clearly failed to understand the basics and as stated above has a software issue that no amount of technology is going to fix.

 

[MCgrease08]

Oh for crying out loud. Are we really doing this again?

Plenty of ways to overcome a dead or missing red dot and still make hits.

It's not 1985 anymore. There are plenty of reliable red dots that have been tested and carried by hundreds of thousands, if not millions of civilian CCers and law enforcement personnel across the world.

You carry what you want to carry. Let the other guy or gal carry what they want to carry. Encouraging people to train and keep their gear well regulated is awesome, but please stop perpetuating this outdated idea that a red dot is gonna get you killed.

 

[jsharmon7]

Is there a link to a story about this? Are we just assuming the guy was untrained because he lost? Are you just being a Luddite for entertainment?

Solid base + 5-shot snubby < solid base + extra rounds, WML, red dot, etc.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Under stress, I forget I have iron sights or just flat out dont see them. I assume I'd do the same under a fast draw/shoot defensive situation in close (under 10') quarters.

So its possible it had nothing to do with the red dot. Maybe he was just too slow.

 

[Basher]

Hard disagree with the OP’s summation, and honestly, I don’t see Mas agreeing with it either re: RDS usage. I’ve been wrong before, though…

I’m siding with BBI. Dots have proven thenselves worthwhile and reliable when a quality option is selected. Those saying irons never fail have never had a set irons fail like I have. Mid-stage back in February at a USPSA match at Parabellum the front iron on my Beretta decided it was done and took a hike. Idiot that I am, and being so shocked at what my $1500 LTT Elite RDO just did, I kinda shrugged my shoulders and said “Guess I’m done.” What I SHOULD have done and the take home lesson I got was that I should have “stayed in the fight.” By quitting, I zeroed that stage which killed my score. I wouldn’t have done any worse if I’d at least TRIED, and chances are good I would have done much better.

IMO, the moral of the story in the OP is don’t quit. Fight through whatever failure you’re experiencing and make things work as best as you can. Guns still shoot just fine without a sighting system. Making hits may be tougher, but if the dang thing will still throw lead I’m going to run it dry forever more after my own experience.

 

[Bassat]

I've never fired a gun in a SD situation. That said, if the offender is close enough to knock you in the head with a pipe, sighting system is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY IRRELVANT. We are talking contact out to maybe 3 feet. This is 100% hits with a 100% magdump range... unless the gentleman in question cracks your skull first. Sights and/or sighting system do not matter here, UNLESS you have trained to ALWAYS USE THE SIGHTS.

 

[wcd]

I've never fired a gun in a SD situation. That said, if the offender is close enough to knock you in the head with a pipe, sighting system is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY IRRELVANT. We are talking contact out to maybe 3 feet. This is 100% hits with a 100% magdump range... unless the gentleman in question cracks your skull first. Sights and/or sighting system do not matter here, UNLESS you have trained to ALWAYS USE THE SIGHTS.

I think training is the key here. It does not matter what hardware you have if you do not have the skill set and mentality to take action. I would maintain Mr Hypothetical would have the same outcome in op’s scenario were he being overly focused of either an electronic or iron sights. Point shooting is indeed a thing and one can be proficient with practice.

 

[cbhausen]

I thought Col. Cooper taught us not to put our finger on the trigger until the sights are on target?

Insert purple as required.

(NRA’s 3 Rules don’t mention sights. Hmmmmm…)

 

[Denny347]

Who is Mas and why would I care what they think?

 

[MCgrease08]

Who is Mas and why would I care what they think?

Who is Massad Ayoob? - Massad Ayoob Group

Massad Ayoob has been handgun editor of GUNS magazine and law enforcement columnist for AMERICAN HANDGUNNER since the 1970s, and has published thousands of articles in gun magazines, martial arts publications, and law enforcement journals. He is the author of some twenty books on firearms...

massadayoobgroup.com

 

[Born2vette]

First, if he is close enough that he can hit me with a pipe my finger is pulling the trigger as soon as the pistol has cleared my holster and my my weak hand is push him as I backpedal (as I have been taught in ever SD class I have ever taken). I practice this as well at the range.

Second:

 

[Trapper Jim]

First, if he is close enough that he can hit me with a pipe my finger is pulling the trigger as soon as the pistol has cleared my holster and my my weak hand is push him as I backpedal (as I have been taught in ever SD class I have ever taken). I practice this as well at the range.

Second:

Key words here are practice and training as said in my last sentence of the OP. When dabbling with a scenario, the masses love to keyboard the what ifs to death.

This ditty was spawned by the amount of gunowners I witness almost every day. Rather than work on Presentation, Sight Management, Trigger Management and Follow Through with the hard work, commitment and the continuing measure of their skill set, some will try to equip themselves to an easy marksmanship. There is compromise in this action.

On the other hand, I do see a upspike in those that are humble enough to stay with it and work hard on it. They are the ones that will be able to shoot more effectively with ANY equipment and retain being a student of the gun for the rest of their lives, for whatever reason they wish to arm themselves.

In every reason to to own guns, Military, Police, Security, Hunting, Self Defense, Collecting, Merchandising, only the Shooting Sports and/or the rigorous training and practice will get you your measured baseline to clearly develop a better skill set. It is humbling and a lot of hard work and could be very costly if you do and if you don’t.

See you on the range.

 

[Denny347]

Who is Massad Ayoob? - Massad Ayoob Group

Massad Ayoob has been handgun editor of GUNS magazine and law enforcement columnist for AMERICAN HANDGUNNER since the 1970s, and has published thousands of articles in gun magazines, martial arts publications, and law enforcement journals. He is the author of some twenty books on firearms...

massadayoobgroup.com

Ah

 

[wtburnette]

Key words here are practice and training as said in my last sentence of the OP. When dabbling with a scenario, the masses love to keyboard the what ifs to death.

This ditty was spawned by the amount of gunowners I witness almost every day. Rather than work on Presentation, Sight Management, Trigger Management and Follow Through with the hard work, commitment and the continuing measure of their skill set, some will try to equip themselves to an easy marksmanship. There is compromise in this action.

On the other hand, I do see a upspike in those that are humble enough to stay with it and work hard on it. They are the ones that will be able to shoot more effectively with ANY equipment and retain being a student of the gun for the rest of their lives, for whatever reason they wish to arm themselves.

In every reason to to own guns, Military, Police, Security, Hunting, Self Defense, Collecting, Merchandising, only the Shooting Sports and/or the rigorous training and practice will get you your measured baseline to clearly develop a better skill set. It is humbling and a lot of hard work and could be very costly if you do and if you don’t.

See you on the range.

Red dots are sights. They typically allow faster pickup (depending on the dot) and work better for older eyes. That's it. In pretty much any other way, it's just a sight. You can train with them similar to iron sights and have the same outcomes. Saying putting a dot on your gun makes you lazy and somehow prevents required training is incorrect.

 

[Hawkeye]

I've never fired a gun in a SD situation. That said, if the offender is close enough to knock you in the head with a pipe, sighting system is TOTALLY and COMPLETELY IRRELVANT. We are talking contact out to maybe 3 feet. This is 100% hits with a 100% magdump range... unless the gentleman in question cracks your skull first. Sights and/or sighting system do not matter here, UNLESS you have trained to ALWAYS USE THE SIGHTS.

This!

 

[Hawkeye]

Who is Mas and why would I care what they think?

Well, to be fair, @Denny347, do you really care what anyone thinks?

 

[Mr. Habib]

I have had rear sights fall off a pistol. I have had front sights loosen in their dovetail and shift POI from shot to shot. Having spent 40+ years repairing electronic equipment, I'm very aware that they can, and will, fail also. Ultimately, if you haven't trained for an equipment malfunction, then you are the malfunction.