Indianapolis Flock security camera opinions

[Timjoebillybob]

As always, we have to weigh the level of governmental intrusion. GPS will reveal where you live, work, play, visit, for how long, how fast your drive, literally every second of your traveling day. FLOCK will alert us if a plate entered as stolen passes through an intersection. We may only ever get a single hit, can you see the difference in the level of intrusion?

A question, does FLOCK only track plates that have been entered such as stolen? Or does it record every plate and if so is it searchable to find where that plate has been spotted?

 

[jsx1043]

A few data points, then a speculative opinion.

Touching on some points through the thread:

Facial recognition in casinos: In Indiana, none of the casinos have facial recognition. The closet akin to it is the Veridocs ID check that confirms a legitimate ID card. When it comes to prohibited persons in the casino, it’s checked through Veridocs and surveillance is notified. Also, the surveillance crew has their version of a “most wanted” poster and keeps an eye out for prohibited persons and ne’erdowells. These security systems and measures are in place and used by a private entity for their own security. They also use Flock systems to monitor vehicles coming on to the property with subsequent hits on vehicles belonging to the above mentioned. Entry and departure times are logged.

Throughout my career in law enforcement and security, I’ve used access control, badging and CCTV rather extensively and I am a firm believer in applicable systems to protect your interests (from a private standpoint) and the citizenry at large (from a law enforcement standpoint). Tools like these are very instrumental in catching bad guys and CAN serve the public interest. As has been mentioned, it’s what is being done with the data and the accountability of those in service to the public (government as a whole) is what I’m really finding to be the sticking point. In my capacities using this technology, it’s always been for a private entity or for a public building (schools, government centers, etc.) where one’s reasonable expectation of privacy is considered before entering said building. We CHOSE to go into that building, knowing full well that measures were in place. In those experiences, having data from those security systems was instrumental in catching bad guys and providing evidence for their conviction.

I too share the concerns of many as to the slippery slope of the growing surveillance state being used to monitor and control the citizenry. Just look at Covid and the steadfast pushes for digital ID and health status apps, and their eventual usage in more authoritarian states like China to control their citizens through a social credit system actually utilizing facial recognition and geolocation. I believe that is the future planned for us all, not just China and the like, but even western countries and governments as the debt-based system is crumbling and new measures have to be taken by the State to maintain control. The exponential growth in State-based surveillance systems “for everyone’s safety” is a scalpel used to to slowly remove freedoms. While it’s true that none of us have a reasonable expectation of privacy when we exit our home and exist in the public sphere, what we’re FEELING is that slow slide into digital authoritarianism with each new camera that’s added. No, our rights aren’t being taken away, but we are still being controlled to an extent, and we each make personal decisions as to how much that control affects us. Going into Meijer? Nah, I’m not stealing anything. Driving down the street? I’m not doing anything wrong, why do I care? Driving across the toll bridge and my plate being read and I’m charged the toll? Slightly intrusive but I’ll accept it because it’s more convenient than stopping at the booth and paying with exact change.

It’s the societal slide into accepting more and more methods of control in the name of “convenience “and “safety” that are the real issues at hand, and the degradation of the American Way of Life that I believe we’re taking issue with. If we had these systems and they were 100% infallible and we knew that they weren’t selling our data or that nefarious actors weren’t using them for specific gain, then overall I think we would accept them more readily, as in the way that Chinese citizens have accepted it full boat because they are subjects to the State. But we as Americans are not (technically) subjects and do not trust government institutions or actors, or heck, even private institutions with our data that is constantly hacked and our social media feeds are dominated by ads for that widget you were taking to your wife about in the other room. It’s the cultural equivalent of, “If you have nothing to hide…”

Ultimately, I posit this, when it comes to the growing surveillance state:

Cui bono? Who benefits?

Is it the local Wal-Mart who is trying to protect its bottom line? Is it the gun shop who is trying to keep burglars and thieves at bay? Is it the private homeowner (myself included) who monitors their driveway to keep an eye on their cars? Is it the citizenry, when Flock cameras are used to catch wanted felons or car break-in hooligans who just ransacked a neighborhood? Or when the axe murderer on the run is caught in town on a beer run? Or is it the State when they are used to fine us for going over a bridge, or not having an emissions tag, or catching that red light?

I think those are the questions and considerations that are in play as we develop our own concerns regarding the surveillance state.

 

[Creedmoor]

A few data points, then a speculative opinion.

Touching on some points through the thread:

Facial recognition in casinos: In Indiana, none of the casinos have facial recognition. The closet akin to it is the Veridocs ID check that confirms a legitimate ID card. When it comes to prohibited persons in the casino, it’s checked through Veridocs and surveillance is notified. Also, the surveillance crew has their version of a “most wanted” poster and keeps an eye out for prohibited persons and ne’erdowells. These security systems and measures are in place and used by a private entity for their own security. They also use Flock systems to monitor vehicles coming on to the property with subsequent hits on vehicles belonging to the above mentioned. Entry and departure times are logged.

Throughout my career in law enforcement and security, I’ve used access control, badging and CCTV rather extensively and I am a firm believer in applicable systems to protect your interests (from a private standpoint) and the citizenry at large (from a law enforcement standpoint). Tools like these are very instrumental in catching bad guys and CAN serve the public interest. As has been mentioned, it’s what is being done with the data and the accountability of those in service to the public (government as a whole) is what I’m really finding to be the sticking point. In my capacities using this technology, it’s always been for a private entity or for a public building (schools, government centers, etc.) where one’s reasonable expectation of privacy is considered before entering said building. We CHOSE to go into that building, knowing full well that measures were in place. In those experiences, having data from those security systems was instrumental in catching bad guys and providing evidence for their conviction.

I too share the concerns of many as to the slippery slope of the growing surveillance state being used to monitor and control the citizenry. Just look at Covid and the steadfast pushes for digital ID and health status apps, and their eventual usage in more authoritarian states like China to control their citizens through a social credit system actually utilizing facial recognition and geolocation. I believe that is the future planned for us all, not just China and the like, but even western countries and governments as the debt-based system is crumbling and new measures have to be taken by the State to maintain control. The exponential growth in State-based surveillance systems “for everyone’s safety” is a scalpel used to to slowly remove freedoms. While it’s true that none of us have a reasonable expectation of privacy when we exit our home and exist in the public sphere, what we’re FEELING is that slow slide into digital authoritarianism with each new camera that’s added. No, our rights aren’t being taken away, but we are still being controlled to an extent, and we each make personal decisions as to how much that control affects us. Going into Meijer? Nah, I’m not stealing anything. Driving down the street? I’m not doing anything wrong, why do I care? Driving across the toll bridge and my plate being read and I’m charged the toll? Slightly intrusive but I’ll accept it because it’s more convenient than stopping at the booth and paying with exact change.

It’s the societal slide into accepting more and more methods of control in the name of “convenience “and “safety” that are the real issues at hand, and the degradation of the American Way of Life that I believe we’re taking issue with. If we had these systems and they were 100% infallible and we knew that they weren’t selling our data or that nefarious actors weren’t using them for specific gain, then overall I think we would accept them more readily, as in the way that Chinese citizens have accepted it full boat because they are subjects to the State. But we as Americans are not (technically) subjects and do not trust government institutions or actors, or heck, even private institutions with our data that is constantly hacked and our social media feeds are dominated by ads for that widget you were taking to your wife about in the other room. It’s the cultural equivalent of, “If you have nothing to hide…”

Ultimately, I posit this, when it comes to the growing surveillance state:

Cui bono? Who benefits?

Is it the local Wal-Mart who is trying to protect its bottom line? Is it the gun shop who is trying to keep burglars and thieves at bay? Is it the private homeowner (myself included) who monitors their driveway to keep an eye on their cars? Is it the citizenry, when Flock cameras are used to catch wanted felons or car break-in hooligans who just ransacked a neighborhood? Or when the axe murderer on the run is caught in town on a beer run? Or is it the State when they are used to fine us for going over a bridge, or not having an emissions tag, or catching that red light?

I think those are the questions and considerations that are in play as we develop our own concerns regarding the surveillance state.

Indiana Gaming Commission uses facial recognition to nab robber

A man who allegedly robbed the Spirit House Liquor Store in Falmouth on 12/12/12, has been arrested at the Hollywood Casino in Lawrenceburg Indiana.

www.fox19.com

Usually one can tell where its used with people being funneled down to one or two wide when entering or leaving the establishment.

 

[printcraft]

GodFearinGunTotin said:
I’m sure with an upgrade here or there and they could also use those to tax you for driving the wrong kinds of cars too often or too much….nah, that would never happen.

The State? That seems like a lot of work considering they already know what "wrong" vehicle you already own. They tax you on that. FLOCK cameras won't show if you are driving it too much. There are significant sized areas not covered. That's a stretch, even for this board.

Maybe with this system... but don't say it "couldn't" go there...

Vandals Keep Destroying London's Car Emission Cameras Over Outrageous Daily Tolls

Activists near London are destroying, vandalizing, and stealing cameras meant to charge motorists for driving in ultra-low emission zones.

www.thedrive.com

 

[jsx1043]

Indiana Gaming Commission uses facial recognition to nab robber

A man who allegedly robbed the Spirit House Liquor Store in Falmouth on 12/12/12, has been arrested at the Hollywood Casino in Lawrenceburg Indiana.

www.fox19.com

Usually one can tell where its used with people being funneled down to one or two wide when entering or leaving the establishment.

I do have to stand corrected on that point, with the caveat as to I don’t know the prevalence of FRS at ALL of the casinos. My experience, which was pretty recent, was that there were at least two that did not use any. I was under the impression that it was not in use at ANY of them.

 

[Creedmoor]

I do have to stand corrected on that point, with the caveat as to I don’t know the prevalence of FRS at ALL of the casinos. My experience, which was pretty recent, was that there were at least two that did not use any. I was under the impression that it was not in use at ANY of them.

I know Anderson checks ones DL, I though my girl said up north they didn't but like Vegas and most other Casinos they just funnel to people down to get a good pic.
A few years back with the beginning of the covid silliness, I did some work for Tractor Supply at a Distribution Center. They had installed a facial camera and screen that also would check one temperature.
I was interesting with the more it learned with one entering the more of your face and upper torso you could cover and it still knew it was you. Your name and badge # was on the screen above the door you were walking through.

 

[jsx1043]

I know Anderson checks ones DL, I though my girl said up north they didn't but like Vegas and most other Casinos they just funnel to people down to get a good pic.
A few years back with the beginning of the covid silliness, I did some work for Tractor Supply at a Distribution Center. They had installed a facial camera and screen that also would check one temperature.
I was interesting with the more it learned with one entering the more of your face and upper torso you could cover and it still knew it was you. Your name and badge # was on the screen above the door you were walking through.

With AI learning like that, gait pattern analysis and retinal scanning, we’re not far off from having our name show on a screen and having personalized ads show when we walk in the Gap to find new clothes. (Humorous Minority Report reference.)

 

[Creedmoor]

With AI learning like that, gait pattern analysis and retinal scanning, we’re not far off from having our name show on a screen and having personalized ads show when we walk in the Gap to find new clothes. (Humorous Minority Report reference.)

Look at what happens with just ones phone now.

Ive been know to post stuff on another forum so others in that thread get those ads.

 

[ed1838]

Saw a road side solar powerd camera on 135 as I was going to Salem today. Thought wow way out here close to Wheeler Holler the man is watching.

 

[Creedmoor]

Saw a road side solar powerd camera on 135 as I was going to Salem today. Thought wow way out here close to Wheeler Holler the man is watching.

They put one on McGallard, Co Rd 800N just west of I69.

 

[Denny347]

Maybe with this system... but don't say it "couldn't" go there...

Vandals Keep Destroying London's Car Emission Cameras Over Outrageous Daily Tolls

Activists near London are destroying, vandalizing, and stealing cameras meant to charge motorists for driving in ultra-low emission zones.

www.thedrive.com

I'm only talking about FLOCK and LPR in general. London has cameras on practically every corner and every building. It's a different world over there.

 

[Denny347]

A question, does FLOCK only track plates that have been entered such as stolen? Or does it record every plate and if so is it searchable to find where that plate has been spotted?

Both. Depends on the level of investigation. You are required to provide case #/reason for the invest before you are allowed access. Most street officers only access stolen vehicle plates. They rarely get deep enough into an investigation to try to locate a vehicle in this manner. Again, locations are VERY broad as there could be many miles between FLOCK cameras and in an urban setting, can still require quite a bit of manual searching from officers to locate. FLOCK only allows officers a general area to look.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I'm only talking about FLOCK and LPR in general. London has cameras on practically every corner and every building. It's a different world over there.

The cameras mentioned in that article are LPR cameras. It compares the vehicle that is registered to that plate to see if it's an approved vehicle or not.

 

[Denny347]

The cameras mentioned in that article are LPR cameras. It compares the vehicle that is registered to that plate to see if it's an approved vehicle or not.

Well, let's be real. The technology is already here for that and much more. I know our LPR/FLOCK does not have that ability and I don't follow other countries too much as they have VERY different laws, Constitutions, and norms.

 

[printcraft]

I'm only talking about FLOCK and LPR in general. London has cameras on practically every corner and every building. It's a different world over there.

If something like that isn't in California within the next 5-10 years I'll be shocked.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Both. Depends on the level of investigation. You are required to provide case #/reason for the invest before you are allowed access. Most street officers only access stolen vehicle plates. They rarely get deep enough into an investigation to try to locate a vehicle in this manner. Again, locations are VERY broad as there could be many miles between FLOCK cameras and in an urban setting, can still require quite a bit of manual searching from officers to locate. FLOCK only allows officers a general area to look.

So they have a searchable database of every plate that passes. But currently there COULD be many miles between cameras. So if (when) the number of cameras increase there could be a searchable database that approaches GPS location capability.

Yes I understand that you or any officer can run
any plate you see. But I'm willing to bet that it would be impossible for you to manually run them all and enter there location in a database.

In my view it's similar to thermal scanners such as in Kyllo. Using technology to bypass human limitations. Or as in GPS in Jones, bypassing manpower constraints. But on a much wider scale.

 

[Denny347]

So they have a searchable database of every plate that passes. But currently there COULD be many miles between cameras. So if (when) the number of cameras increase there could be a searchable database that approaches GPS location capability.

Hugely cost prohibitive for those kinds of numbers.

Yes I understand that you or any officer can run
any plate you see. But I'm willing to bet that it would be impossible for you to manually run them all and enter there location in a database.

Correct but the premise (and basis for court arguments I've testified in) is that many people have an expectation of privacy regarding their license plate and their vehicle while in public when there is none. It's the plain view doctrine. Whether it's recorded or live, the privacy doesn't exist.

In my view it's similar to thermal scanners such as in Kyllo. Using technology to bypass human limitations. Or as in GPS in Jones, bypassing manpower constraints. But on a much wider scale.

I appreciate you view on this but when debating the legality, Court decisions (if not laws) are what we operate under. Those are the basis of my viewpoints in this thread.

 

[Denny347]

The thermal imager didn't see inside the house, it simply detected hot spots on the exterior.

And I didn't say that, I simply quoted a SCOTUS opinion. If you noticed it stated that achieving the same results as traditional surveillance using electronic means, without trespass may be a Constitutional violation. Would cameras that track your vehicle's location have the same results as traditional surveillance?

Thermal is beyond a human eye capacity, that is why it's a violation. It's beyond a visual spectrum that available to the human eye.

Here's a question for you, talking on a payphone you wouldn't have an expectation of privacy from being overheard from someone standing outside it, correct? Would it be a Constitutional violation for the govt. to plant a bug on the outside of said payphone booth?

I have no idea as a phone booth is a "last century" phenomena.... Generally speaking, sound is MUCH harder to record than a picture. It generally requires amplification, which COULD be a violation w/o a warrant (such as a directional microphone). Audio and visual comparisons are apples and oranges, legally speaking.

 

[JettaKnight]

I guess they could wank it to pics of vehicles....

Don't kink-shame.

 

[Route 45]

Court docs: Video surveillance, flock cameras help police find Lawrence murder suspect

LAWRENCE, Ind. – An Indianapolis man has been arrested and accused of murder following a deadly shooting in Lawrence. Police credit surveillance cameras with helping arrest 23-year-old Oscar Guarad…

fox59.com