IMPD releases video of OIS at gas station on 8/2/21

[Double T]

I didn't realize someone had to finish their sentence/statement before firing a shot. Please show your work on how you came to conclude the first shot hit his T spine (but you're not sure where) and how you conclude that he likely couldn't breathe or move.

Stop trying to sound like you know what you're talking about. You don't.

Considering I have cared for people who have had similar injuries from automobile accidents, and have an understanding of innervation from the tspine...his reaction was indicative of hitting his spinal column. I saw no chest rise or fall. He had no fine motor movement, nor did he move at all when that shot was fired.

In this instance, had the guy been able to show hands...he would have been shot...since the trigger for that shot was apparently any movement...the likes of which I didn't see any.

I will rewatch this, and post some time stamps for you to zoom in on for the evidence of a debilitating first shot.

 

[Twangbanger]

If you read the entire text of the PR video, his gun was associated with three prior shootings, two of them homicides if I recall properly.

Two things strike me about it:

1) If he had complied, and this would have gone to trial, the prosecutor would have to "make a case." This is where the concept of a "Soros Prosecutor" really starts to hurt communities. This guy was apparently spewing violence, mayhem, and bullets all over his quadrant of Indianapolis. I wonder what the chances of conviction would have been? Hopefully they had a solid case?

2) The dog seems to have played a role in the creep's decision-making. He seemed to be considering his options, and (IIRC) hadn't gone for the gun yet, until he heard the dog vocalizing (and the officer loudly yelling "get the dog"). I don't know if the "fetchez la chien" theater was part of an intentional "Psy-War" tactic, but it sure worked here. As a citizen, I'm not necessarily unhappy about that. If there had been no dog, it's entirely possible he thinks his options through, gets apprehended, goes through the process, and gets back out in X or XX years. With the dog helping his decision-making, he got his OSHT-Loop "accelerated" and ended up dancing in a rain of buckshot, thereby saving the system a lot of trouble.

 

[Twangbanger]

To play devils advocate here, it WAS a good shoot IMO until the anchoring shot. Slowed down to 1/4 speed, the cop said "hands, let me see your hands" and on the second instance of "hands" in that sentence, shot the guy despite his inability to move his extremities. Looked like the first shot hit his T spine, depending where, he likely couldn't breathe let alone move those extremities.

The fact you called it an "anchoring shot" seems to indicate the incorrectness of your position. I'm not going to sit through it again, but it looked to me like his hand was still moving, and when that last shot hit him, his body definitely moved, indicating he still had motor function. I'm not a forensic doctor, at Holiday Inn or anywhere else, but I say good shoot.

 

[Double T]

Cameras for this:
Top Left-Cam 1 Top Right-Cam 2
Bottom Left-Cam 3 Bottom Right-Cam 4


4:14-guy points at officers with his gun clearly visible in cam4, at 4:14 a few frames ahead at 1/4 speed you can see the man collapse to the ground in cams on the right side of the screen.

From 4:14 to 4:22 at the time of the anchoring shot, the only movement the guy made was from reactionary falling and settling, and a realization that he only had access to the gross motor function within his shoulder looking like mostly deltoid innervation...further indicating a high thoracic shot...likely T3 or T4. Similarly, I also have rewatched, and did not visualize any chest rise or fall through the blurs and (focusing on the logo on his shirt) during that time frame. Had he have been hit simply in the lung, he would have been heaving...and we likely would have heard his agonal breathing.

You are free to do the same and prove me wrong. Once the shots are fired, camera 2 is the camera to look at for movement.

While I understand the sentiment of a person potentially having the capacity to again draw their weapon, and return fire, this person did not move. At all. And looks as if they were not breathing.

Similarly speaking, the officers did fairly well to communicate to the guy prior to opening fire, they did have a bit of a deadly funnel going on, and officer two was not in a position to visualize the guy, nor was he in any good position being behind some candy.

As I said, it was a good shoot up until the point of the anchoring shot with all visual evidence. I understand they all want to go home, but the guy shot someone who was incapable of movement.

 

[phylodog]

Considering I have cared for people who have had similar injuries from automobile accidents, and have an understanding of innervation from the tspine...his reaction was indicative of hitting his spinal column. I saw no chest rise or fall. He had no fine motor movement, nor did he move at all when that shot was fired.

In this instance, had the guy been able to show hands...he would have been shot...since the trigger for that shot was apparently any movement...the likes of which I didn't see any.

I will rewatch this, and post some time stamps for you to zoom in on for the evidence of a debilitating first shot.

Super impressive. Now do that in under three seconds when someone just tried to murder you.

 

[phylodog]

Cameras for this:
Top Left-Cam 1 Top Right-Cam 2
Bottom Left-Cam 3 Bottom Right-Cam 4


4:14-guy points at officers with his gun clearly visible in cam4, at 4:14 a few frames ahead at 1/4 speed you can see the man collapse to the ground in cams on the right side of the screen.

From 4:14 to 4:22 at the time of the anchoring shot, the only movement the guy made was from reactionary falling and settling, and a realization that he only had access to the gross motor function within his shoulder looking like mostly deltoid innervation...further indicating a high thoracic shot...likely T3 or T4. Similarly, I also have rewatched, and did not visualize any chest rise or fall through the blurs and (focusing on the logo on his shirt) during that time frame. Had he have been hit simply in the lung, he would have been heaving...and we likely would have heard his agonal breathing.

You are free to do the same and prove me wrong. Once the shots are fired, camera 2 is the camera to look at for movement.

While I understand the sentiment of a person potentially having the capacity to again draw their weapon, and return fire, this person did not move. At all. And looks as if they were not breathing.

Similarly speaking, the officers did fairly well to communicate to the guy prior to opening fire, they did have a bit of a deadly funnel going on, and officer two was not in a position to visualize the guy, nor was he in any good position being behind some candy.

As I said, it was a good shoot up until the point of the anchoring shot with all visual evidence. I understand they all want to go home, but the guy shot someone who was incapable of movement.

Wow. You up for the armchair Heisman? You'd get my vote.

You are the perfect example of why a police officer's actions aren't judged from the perspective of someone who isn't.

 

[Double T]

Wow. You up for the armchair Heisman? You'd get my vote.

You are the perfect example of why a police officer's actions aren't judged from the perspective of someone who isn't.

Send it to donut operator. Get his assessment.

 

[phylodog]

Send it to donut operator. Get his assessment.

Better yet, I worked with and trained with the officer carrying the shotgun for well over a decade. I'll put his skills, abilities and experience up against your armchair expertise any day of the week. I can put you in contact with him if you'd like to tell him how much better you could do his job.

You offer nothing that anyone else with the benefit of slow motion, **** quality video could offer. Just another Couldn't complaining about those that do.

 

[Double T]

Wow. You up for the armchair Heisman? You'd get my vote.

You are the perfect example of why a police officer's actions aren't judged from the perspective of someone who isn't.

And this statement is a perfect example of why they should be.

 

[phylodog]

And this statement is a perfect example of why they should be.

Lol. Ok hero, convince SCOTUS and you got something.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Cameras for this:
Top Left-Cam 1 Top Right-Cam 2
Bottom Left-Cam 3 Bottom Right-Cam 4


4:14-guy points at officers with his gun clearly visible in cam4, at 4:14 a few frames ahead at 1/4 speed you can see the man collapse to the ground in cams on the right side of the screen.

From 4:14 to 4:22 at the time of the anchoring shot, the only movement the guy made was from reactionary falling and settling, and a realization that he only had access to the gross motor function within his shoulder looking like mostly deltoid innervation...further indicating a high thoracic shot...likely T3 or T4. Similarly, I also have rewatched, and did not visualize any chest rise or fall through the blurs and (focusing on the logo on his shirt) during that time frame. Had he have been hit simply in the lung, he would have been heaving...and we likely would have heard his agonal breathing.

You are free to do the same and prove me wrong. Once the shots are fired, camera 2 is the camera to look at for movement.

While I understand the sentiment of a person potentially having the capacity to again draw their weapon, and return fire, this person did not move. At all. And looks as if they were not breathing.

Similarly speaking, the officers did fairly well to communicate to the guy prior to opening fire, they did have a bit of a deadly funnel going on, and officer two was not in a position to visualize the guy, nor was he in any good position being behind some candy.

As I said, it was a good shoot up until the point of the anchoring shot with all visual evidence. I understand they all want to go home, but the guy shot someone who was incapable of movement.

You’ve rewatched the video how many times? How many times did the officers get to rewatch the scene as it happened? Hindsight is always 20/20, they were justified in the shoot, so who cares about your 1/4 speed rewatched 25 times studied the logo on his shirt bs. If you’re so confident in your decisions and detective work, go get a badge and help em out.


I guess I’ll ask this. What’s the point of your post? Do you think they should be fired? Charged? Just talking ****? Critiquing?

 

[Double T]

Better yet, I worked with and trained with the officer carrying the shotgun for well over a decade. I'll put his skills, abilities and experience up against your armchair expertise any day of the week. I can put you in contact with him if you'd like to tell him how much better you could do his job.

You offer nothing that anyone else with the benefit of slow motion, **** quality video could offer. Just another Couldn't complaining about those that do.

I am not saying it was a bad shoot altogether. I'm saying that shot was unnecessary, yet I also understand the need to clear the threat prior to engaging and taking him into custody. I have more issue with the guy behind the candy not pushing and allowing your buddy to be the sole person with gumption and balls enough to push to the threat after shots were flying. His finger stayed high on the slide.

Because he didn't have any other eyes on, he did react appropriately at the time. I do believe the guy was no longer a threat to him, however, based on my assessment. His assessment is completely different and you are right though. In that instance, it is "where is the gun", not "Is this guy done". And inherently, that is a major flaw with the current LEO training...especially when there is one guy approaching from what I've seen. Would you be saying the same thing about this had the guy not been a sworn officer? If it were one of us pleb civilians?

While you emphasize, I can't "do the job". I will also say: I don't have to constantly fear for my ability to return home, and I feel for the officer in this situation. So kudos to you guys who do this ****.

 

[phylodog]

I've never called anyone a pleb civilian.

Your "assessment" is based on information not available to the officers at the time and therefore completely irrelevant and meaningless. You can show kudos to the men and women who do things you don't by supporting them and understanding that shooting paper targets, completing training courses or watching Youtube videos does not give you an accurate idea of what that type of experience is like.

 

[Double T]

I've never called anyone a pleb civilian.

Your "assessment" is based on information not available to the officers at the time and therefore completely irrelevant and meaningless. You can show kudos to the men and women who do things you don't by supporting them and understanding that shooting paper targets, completing training courses or watching Youtube videos does not give you an accurate idea of what that type of experience is like.

You never said it, but apparently officers are to be without any questioning...which is why I pose a question:

If this weren't an LEO shooting, would you still be singing the same tune?

 

[phylodog]

You never said it, but apparently officers are to be without any questioning...which is why I pose a question:

If this weren't an LEO shooting, would you still be singing the same tune?

100% yes.

I've been in that situation so I have experience with the physiological affects the human body experiences in a life and death situation.

 

[d.kaufman]

 

[Cameramonkey]

If you EVER have to use the term "I watched the video again." or "I slowed it down" and make judgements based on that, you fail. Officers cant know what you know, or have the luxury of a sideline review before executing their actions. So stop making judgements based on after the fact evidence.

 

[BigRed]

Nobody needs to dispatch vermin like that.

Vermin needs dispatching.....so there has to be somebody somewhere.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Vermin needs dispatching.....so there has to be somebody somewhere.

I meant that as "nobody DESERVES to need to dispatch vermin like that." I wish officers didnt have to deal with the baggage that comes with these events. Glad they are willing (for now at least) to step up and do the dirty work.

 

[rooster]

Ok, now it’s no secret here that I’m no secret admirer of any Leo’s, I’ve never been a cop but I’ve done a fair amount of cqb/room clearing stuff in the army.

That second shot was good. Even with a pump instead of a semiauto most people are gonna pull the trigger more than once before trying to see if bad guy still wants to kill them, leo, soldier, marine, civilian, doesn’t matter.

quite frankly I’m impressed at the restraint he had to hesitate a second to see if the guy moved again.

totality of the circumstances: known felon, fleeing the law, looking at spending the rest of his life in prison, confirmed armed, pulled out that weapon. This was a good shoot even if the cop emptied the tube in him.