Gun show loophole closing?

[Expat]

I think we can all agree, the children of the world have now been saved.

 

[kjdoski]

I’m still confused, it seems like this would effectively outlaw the use of classifieds to sell guns without ffl transfer. It might still be legal if you know someone, close friends or something. When does this go into effect? I’ve literally traded hundreds of guns over the years on armslist and like websites. Especially before Armslist was a pay site. I never did it for money. It was always to fine tune my collection, trade for something that peaked my interest at the time, or upgrade. Honestly I’ve always known that the days of meeting people in the middle of the night at Walmart parking lots to trade guns was probably numbered…. I’m still bummed about it because it is such a fun hobby for me. Having to meet at a gun shop to fill out forms makes it less fun, and will definitely prohibit some people just due to scheduling. And I’m guessing the shops will take advantage and their rates will go up.

As I read the new "rule" and "definitions," private sales are effectively outlawed. The ATF wrote itself a bunch of "presumptions" they can use to "prove" a private sale is effectively "in the firearms business," and therefore requires an FFL. If you don't have an FFL, and they feel like you've "engaged in the business," they can charge you.

I'm not a lawyer, but as I read this rule, private sales are over, unless you want to make yourself the target of an ATF investigation.

Note, the rule uses all kinds of double-speak (shocker), saying that the "presumptions" can only be used to make administrative or civil decisions, but then point out that the "presumptions of being engaged in the business" CAN be used in criminal matters to provide instructions to juries about who is "engaged in the business (without an FFL)" and what fines/penalties/sentences can be levied.

I can only hope a bunch of pro-gun groups already have good attorney's tee'd up to take this one to court, where it SHOULD be struck down as the egregious over-reach that it is. But, in the meantime, I'm done selling anything without going through an FFL.

 

[Stengun]

More hoops to dissuade the people

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I like these guys' take on stuff. In this video they go through some of the definitions of terms in the new rule. If they're reading and explaining it correctly, your "self defense" firearm sale from your "personal collection" will require a FFL transfer/BG check.

 

[DFacres]

Interesting read:
https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/firearm-hunting/3-myths-about-bidens-new-gun-license-rule
https://www.themeateater.com/hunt/f...license-rule&utm_id=1219805&sfmc_id=499964525

 

[GunsNstuff]

How on Earth can the Feds claim you're in the business of selling guns if you sell a gun privately, but you're not in the business of selling cars if you sell your car privately? You need a license to sell cars as a business. There are many things that require a license to sell if you're doing so as a business. The IRS doesn't go after everyone that sold their car, wanting their business taxes from your "car selling business" after you sold your old car. Partly because that would be a ridiculous claim on behalf of the IRS and partly because no court would buy that garbage argument.

Then again, the FAA is cracking down on the RC aircraft hobby with rules that are just as ridiculous. If I record myself flying a quadcopter in my front yard, then post the video on YouTube, that's technically a rule violation because the FAA says that while I am not selling my services as a drone pilot, someone may see the video 20 years later and decide to contact me in the year 2044 to offer me money to fly a drone for them. That means I am advertising a drone flying business, even though I am not in business and have no plans to be in business.

If the same people in charge of the government remain in place in 2025, I think we're done. This gun hobby will be gone. The Supreme Court will not last another 4 years without replacement justices and/or an increase in the number of judges.

 

[tbhausen]

Intent? If you are just selling at market value, is it your intent to make a profit?

I would think that a sale would be similar to silver / gold sales between people. If just selling to a friend at market value and just so happens the market value is higher than what you paid, well, good for you. Now if you wish to add something like $2.00 over spot, well, that IMO is an intentional profit.

If you are adding value over and above the market value, well, that is indeed selling for a profit. If not adding a dollar, then it’s just a sale at fair market value.

If you buy at wholesale and sell at retail….well, 4473 is a must.

Dats how I see it.

You mean it’s really not as simple as two individuals agreeing upon a price fair to both when selling legally-owned private property?

 

[GunsNstuff]

Hillary Clinton violates the espionage act, but no "reasonable" prosecutor would charge her because the intent was not there (even though it clearly was). But if you sell a gun and have no intent to be in the business of selling firearms, you can be prosecuted? The same "reasonable prosecutor" that won't prosecute Clinton for a major crime, will prosecute you for a crime that is not really a crime, but rather a sneaky way for the Feds to get around Congress and get private gun sales banned. This country is losing it's mind. Now, how many feds are looking at the classified section of this website right now and building cases against people that are selling a gun to finance the purchase of another gun they want? Anyone have any idea yet or do we have to wait for these good people to be charged with crimes, then talk about it in the forums here, assuming they're not put under a gag order by the federal court.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Hillary Clinton violates the espionage act, but no "reasonable" prosecutor would charge her because the intent was not there (even though it clearly was). But if you sell a gun and have no intent to be in the business of selling firearms, you can be prosecuted? The same "reasonable prosecutor" that won't prosecute Clinton for a major crime, will prosecute you for a crime that is not really a crime, but rather a sneaky way for the Feds to get around Congress and get private gun sales banned. This country is losing it's mind. Now, how many feds are looking at the classified section of this website right now and building cases against people that are selling a gun to finance the purchase of another gun they want? Anyone have any idea yet or do we have to wait for these good people to be charged with crimes, then talk about it in the forums here, assuming they're not put under a gag order by the federal court.

If it werent for double standards, they wouldnt have any at all.

 

[JAL]

Quoting Stalin's infamous KGB Chief, Lavrentiy Beria:

"Show me the man and I'll show you the crime."

It's also BATFE's motto.

 

[Tombs]

Without a full blown registry they have to know this is literally impossible to enforce.

This is just designed as political terror to prevent you from exercising your constitutional rights. I'd say give them the middle finger and go on with your life.

 

[GunsNstuff]

Without a full blown registry they have to know this is literally impossible to enforce.

This is just designed as political terror to prevent you from exercising your constitutional rights. I'd say give them the middle finger and go on with your life.

It's impossible to enforce if you're selling a gun to someone you know offline. However, if you advertise selling it online, it's not that hard to charge someone. The Fed could end up being the buyer. The Fed could just monitor the ad for the sale and note that you mark the gun as sold after you sell it. That gives them probable cause to get a warrant to get into your messages, find who you sold it to and prove that you sold the gun privately. This new rule will shut down all online private sales once the Feds begin arresting and prosecuting good people that are just selling an old gun they don't shoot anymore.
I hated that I had to do it, but when I was in my 1st apartment after moving away from home, I had to sell my Egyptian Maadi AK47 to pay rent one month. I sold it at a loss and did not want to sell it, but I needed the money fast. Today, I think the Feds would prosecute me for that.

 

[BigRed]

I like these guys' take on stuff. In this video they go through some of the definitions of terms in the new rule. If they're reading and explaining it correctly, your "self defense" firearm sale from your "personal collection" will require a FFL transfer/BG check.

atf... take an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the States, spend a career raping and shredding it.

atf needs to be abolished and sent straight to Hell from where it was spawned.