Gr666mer Updates

[BugI02]

Prove me wrong.

You posted something, ergo you are wrong

 

[Route 45]

Which is why I said I probably wouldn't find common ground with you or Route 45.

Correct. There really is no point in having a discussion if one person is coming from a stance of reason, logic and observations, while the other person is arguing from a foundation of superstition.

 

[Ark]

No one was justifying behavior. Just saying that the claim that it has to be nurture and can’t be nature is disproven with evidence that the behavior also happens among other species, and with no apparent “Satan made them do it” reasoning.

Are humans the only creatures on the planet which experience environmental factors?

 

[BugI02]

The study on the lesbo gorillas was from like 2015, or 2016.

But, again, no one here is justifying behavior. I’m just saying that these studies suggest it’s not all nurture. I have no book that makes me have to doubt those findings.

It does not hurt me at all. I don’t need it to to be a certain way to protect a belief. From your perspective, if gayness is nature, it kinda calls into question certain beliefs especially among Protestants.

I don’t think it has to. Gayness, pedophilia, even killing one’s young, if those happen abnormally naturally, it doesn’t excuse anything. You still get to believe homosexual acts are sinful. It doesn’t need to hurt one’s Christian faith.

You don’t have to believe God made them that way. It’s a fallen world that brought disease and all sorts of things. Did God give my Dad cancer? Nah. He inherited some bad genes. And he practically swam in pesticides and herbicides for his garden. Some of that was nature and some of that was nurture.

Well, by rejecting all religious principles and quite a few moral ones (because it has to be your truth, of course) you are 2/3 to 3/4 of the way to nihilism. Bravo!

How is that right behavior arising naturally from right thinking thing working out for you?

 

[BugI02]

The study on the lesbo gorillas was from like 2015, or 2016.

But, again, no one here is justifying behavior. I’m just saying that these studies suggest it’s not all nurture. I have no book that makes me have to doubt those findings.

It does not hurt me at all. I don’t need it to to be a certain way to protect a belief. From your perspective, if gayness is nature, it kinda calls into question certain beliefs especially among Protestants.

I don’t think it has to. Gayness, pedophilia, even killing one’s young, if those happen abnormally naturally, it doesn’t excuse anything. You still get to believe homosexual acts are sinful. It doesn’t need to hurt one’s Christian faith.

You don’t have to believe God made them that way. It’s a fallen world that brought disease and all sorts of things. Did God give my Dad cancer? Nah. He inherited some bad genes. And he practically swam in pesticides and herbicides for his garden. Some of that was nature and some of that was nurture.

Dude, 'god made them that way' is the slipperiest of all slippery slopes

Presumably under that gestalt, your idea of god made Hannibal Lecter the way he was, too - so it's not his fault! I guess you're just not big on impulse control, which would seem to be at odds with the whole 'issues viewed carefully from all sides' schtick, too

You subsidize something, you get more of it. Crime or gayness, the results are the same

 

[buckwacker]

Correct. There really is no point in having a discussion if one person is coming from a stance of reason, logic and observations, while the other person is arguing from a foundation of superstition.

Which is which?

Isn't this a bit like you're a white supremacist, sexist, bigot so your opinion is invalid and therefore I don't need to employ logic and reason to describe the superiority of my position.

 

[BugI02]

Correct. There really is no point in having a discussion if one person is coming from a stance of reason, logic and observations, while the other person is arguing from a foundation of superstition.

Beg the question much?

 

[jamil]

Dude, 'god made them that way' is the slipperiest of all slippery slopes

Presumably under that gestalt, your idea of god made Hannibal Lecter the way he was, too - so it's not his fault! I guess you're just not big on impulse control, which would seem to be at odds with the whole 'issues viewed carefully from all sides' schtick, too

You subsidize something, you get more of it. Crime or gayness, the results are the same

I mean, I don’t subsidize your poor reading comprehension and you keep being bad at it.

Where did I say that’s my idea? I didn’t believe god made them that way when I was a Christian. I certainly would not make that argument now. I have never claimed that having a natural cause excuses anything. I said it’s an anomaly. Naturally caused, but not normal. And certainly not excused.

But unlike having to classify things as sinful, I am not tied to thinking society has to ban it. If there is no victim, I don’t see a crime. If they’re not hurting anyone, or infringing on anyone’s rights, what they do in their own privacy is none of my business. I don’t care. There’s nothing there that needs excused, and that does not change whether it’s nature or nurture.

But, they don’t have the right to impose their behavior on society. People should keep their private business private. I don’t have to accept it. I don’t have to view it as normal. It’s not normal. It’s an anomaly.

Pedophilia and all that, is a different story. Wood chipper for groomers is not a bad policy.

 

[jamil]

Well, by rejecting all religious principles and quite a few moral ones (because it has to be your truth, of course) you are 2/3 to 3/4 of the way to nihilism. Bravo!

How is that right behavior arising naturally from right thinking thing working out for you?

Maybe you should start reading things through before posting nonsense.

There are universal truths. Some were discovered via religion. So I think religion is important to society. Especially Christianity. I think without religion I’m not sure those discoveries would have come about. For example the founding principles were from both secular and religious sources. Without both, the people who inspired our founders may not have drawn some of the same conclusions.

But, from a secular standpoint, I think gayness is just an anomaly. I don’t see it as hurting anyone. I don’t think gays need to be thrown off rooftops. Or stoned. I don’t own that perspective. So it’s not my truth. It’s an opinion.

Nothing I’ve espoused in this conversation is uniquely “my truth”. That’s a collectivist idea, the way you’re applying it. If I am any kind of “ist” it’s an individualist—and maybe you could throw a “secular” in front of it. I wouldn’t even call myself a humanist. So that **** don’t flow. Something that would be “my truth”, as an individualist, would be uniquely true for me. The adopting of opinions I hold, for example.

Maybe instead of pinning that image of straw on me so it’s easier for you to knock down, you might actually look at what I’m really saying. It might be harder for you to knock down, but also it might be harder for you to disagree with.

 

[jamil]

Which is which?

Isn't this a bit like you're a white supremacist, sexist, bigot so your opinion is invalid and therefore I don't need to employ logic and reason to describe the superiority of my position.

I would not classify religion per se as superstition. It’s well enough just to leave it at religion.

 

[Route 45]

Which is which?

Isn't this a bit like you're a white supremacist, sexist, bigot so your opinion is invalid and therefore I don't need to employ logic and reason to describe the superiority of my position.

No. Not even close. There are observable facts and there are beliefs, and they are not the same thing.

But like I said, I’m done. I can’t compete with magic and little red Devils with pitchforks.

 

[buckwacker]

No. Not even close. There are observable facts and there are beliefs, and they are not the same thing.

But like I said, I’m done. I can’t compete with magic and little red Devils with pitchforks.

If we're talking the source of morality, isn't your position as much one of belief as is mine? To claim otherwise is to claim omnipotence.

 

[jamil]

If we're talking the source of morality, isn't your position as much one of belief as is mine? To claim otherwise is to claim omnipotence.

I can’t speak for others, but in my own view I’d say my perspective is more from a freethinking viewpoint mixed with just a wee bit of consequentialism and a heavy dose of instinct. So those are based on things one can know, and not derived from a faith in supernatural.

 

[buckwacker]

I can’t speak for others, but in my own view I’d say my perspective is more from a freethinking viewpoint mixed with just a wee bit of consequentialism and a heavy dose of instinct. So those are based on things one can know, and not derived from a faith in supernatural.

But at the end of the day it's still a belief, unless you're omnipotent, which is an impossibility.

 

[jamil]

But at the end of the day it's still a belief, unless you're omnipotent, which is an impossibility.

Maybe we don’t think of belief the same way. You can base belief on actual knowledge. You can base belief on less sure things. You can base belief on empirical evidence. You can base belief on logic and reasoning. And you can base belief on faith. And to me, the confidence I have in a belief depends on the basis.

I have the least confidence in faith based belief. I can have faith that something unknowable is true, but I don’t know it until I know it. I have the most confidence in knowledge based belief. I know that if I have 37 guns, and I buy a new gun, and my wife doesn’t know about it, I still have 13 guns. at least I think that’s the number. Okay. Bad example.

 

[BigRed]

By definition, faith and knowledge are two different things.

 

[jamil]

By definition, faith and knowledge are two different things.

Of course. Both are beliefs though. They stand at opposite ends of the belief confidence spectrum.

 

[actaeon277]

Where should blame be laid? For me, the wood chipper comment up thread should give you an idea where I think the blame lies.

Blame the wood chipper?
Why dirty the chipper with that ghosa?

 

[actaeon277]

Oh
My
God.

You guys are ruining this

 

[jamil]

I mean. It’s kinda our thing. It’s what we do. And, c’mon. It’s free.