Gov. Pence authorizes arming of National Guard Facilities

[NHT3]

Still no answer to my original question, what else may be required to complete their "training". It would be great if Guy would weigh in and share what he knows. Someone knows what will be required and, I think for the most part, we all just want our soldiers to be protected and are willing to help if at all possible. No way for any of us to be involved or assist if they keep treating the info like it was one of those "If I told you I would have to kill you" questions.[FONT=&amp]


NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
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[actaeon277]

While certain units with good commanders get a lot of range time (and those mostly Infantry), and SOCOM gets all the drills they need, a lot of units fall short. Especially non-infantry types.
I've known some Iraq vets (on their way back to the sandbox) to take several tactical classes because they knew enough to realize that the Army taught them little.
Field cleaning. Taught.
Small unit maneuvers. Taught.
Larger unit maneuvers. Taught.
Firing on a static range, no reload drills, no FTF drills. Meh. Sometimes taught.

 

[NHT3]

Why do you assume they will be using National Guard weapons?



Learning how different firearms work so as not to set oneself on fire is vital to crawling.



Learning how power tools operate is vital to crawling.

If they do not understand how firearms function and there are NDs or ADs that hurt people, what do you think will happen to the Gov.'s EO? Especially if there is a new Gov. come January 2017.

The threat is oneself. Defeat yourself and you are well on your way to safety.

You cannot do the Tommy Tactical stuff until you learn the basics. Ninja this, ninja that, ninja please. Learn the basics. The rest will come.

This all sounds a lot like political rhetoric to me.. Skip the metaphors about various power tools and talking about "Tommy Tactical stuff", what would YOU suggest as a training regimen for these guys? Please keep it simple for the uneducated among us.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If you're in the National Guard (hence forth referred to as "Nasty Girls" because tradition dictates I must) then you have been through your branch's basic training. That basic training included a block of instruction on firearms. If you failed to learn what end the bullet comes out of, what not to point it at, how to load it, etc. then you probably washed out of Basic and didn't get to be a Nasty Girl anyway.

While your standard troop gets little to no pistol specific training, that does not mean the military lacks the schools for it. Who trains the MPs? Who trains CID? Now I know good and well that there are Nasty Girl MP units in the state of Indiana. I also know good and well they got pistol training. I know good and well the NRA didn't give it to them. So you're telling me we can't get the Nasty Girl recruiters quality RELEVANT training in house? While this thread has apparently assumed they must be trained like Aunt Bee's Knitting Circle, these are soldiers and as such have received the fundamentals of firearms operation and safety as part of their initial entry training.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Skip the metaphors about various power tools and talking about "Tommy Tactical stuff", what would YOU suggest as a training regimen for these guys?

I've already said it but what they are doing is real good. "This is a gun" is great training as a starting point. It is the horsestance training before one becomes all ninjafied.

Goes back to the algebraic formulation for risk and how any corporation would view it from an insurance perspective.

There have been what, IIRC, two Jihadi attacks on recruiters (AR and TN). The bigger continual risk of injury is the person carrying the pistol.

I am a far bigger threat to myself than any Jihadi. I seek training to ensure that I do not do dumb stuff with the gun. Not doing dumb stuff with the gun is the foundation of firearms training. It is not sexy. It will not grow your beard and put burn holes in your 5.11s, but it will prevent unnecessary injury and that is the goal.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

BTW, TFB last night had a video on what happens when you go right to the ninjy training without any basics. Here's someone who has no firearms experience and is afraid of the gun:

News Reporter Takes On Police Training - The Firearm Blog

 

[SSGSAD]

BTW, TFB last night had a video on what happens when you go right to the ninjy training without any basics. Here's someone who has no firearms experience and is afraid of the gun:

News Reporter Takes On Police Training - The Firearm Blog

I LOVED that vid..... Esp., the part where the 2 women, were fighting, and she just gives up, and walks away .....

 

[Alamo]

There have been what, IIRC, two Jihadi attacks on recruiters (AR and TN).

Also one on an Army recruiting office in Little Rock, Arkansas on 01 Jun 2009. Killed one soldier and wounded another. There have been at least two other planned attacks on recruiting offices that were thwarted. Widening the window just a bit, there have been other planned attacks on military installations that were caught before they could be executed. And then, of course, there was Ft Hood.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BTW, TFB last night had a video on what happens when you go right to the ninjy training without any basics. Here's someone who has no firearms experience and is afraid of the gun:

News Reporter Takes On Police Training - The Firearm Blog

So this is relevant because soldiers in the National Guard have no firearms experience and are afraid of guns?

He does look terrified. Holding in his scream with his hand.

Hard to convey in the photo, but I'm sure they are screaming on the inside.

 

[NHT3]

I've already said it but what they are doing is real good. "This is a gun" is great training as a starting point. It is the horsestance training before one becomes all ninjafied.

Goes back to the algebraic formulation for risk and how any corporation would view it from an insurance perspective.

There have been what, IIRC, two Jihadi attacks on recruiters (AR and TN). The bigger continual risk of injury is the person carrying the pistol.

I am a far bigger threat to myself than any Jihadi. I seek training to ensure that I do not do dumb stuff with the gun. Not doing dumb stuff with the gun is the foundation of firearms training. It is not sexy. It will not grow your beard and put burn holes in your 5.11s, but it will prevent unnecessary injury and that is the goal.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but in my opinion you insult troops, many of which served in the middle east by starting their training with "this is a gun" and this is where the bullets come from. Maybe some of those that you think need that sort of training don't view "themselves" as a bigger threat than a Jihadi. I would be willing to bet that there are 5 Navy personnel in Tennessee that, if they could speak, would not share your view. Nothing wrong with the basics but it appears that NRA basic pistol may be all they are going to get and IMHO that would be a travesty.
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[actaeon277]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but in my opinion you insult troops, many of which served in the middle east by starting their training with "this is a gun" and this is where the bullets come from. Maybe some of those that you think need that sort of training don't view "themselves" as a bigger threat than a Jihadi. I would be willing to bet that there are 5 Navy personnel in Tennessee that, if they could speak, would not share your view. Nothing wrong with the basics but it appears that NRA basic pistol may be all they are going to get and IMHO that would be a travesty.
[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT]
Certified Glock armorer-M&P armorer & 1911mechanic
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]

Unless something changed, there was no firearm training at all in navy boot.

 

[NHT3]

My son went through about 5 years ago and ended up on the Nimitz. There was training with a Beretta and shotgun at Great Lakes but from what I understand not a lot.. I can tell you that safety was a priority and he is still convinced that someone would have shot him if he broke 180 with the shotgun. He came home a pretty good shot and his basics were sound but he had a little time with a Glock 17 before he went in. In his particular case I will say that he would gain very little, if anything from the NRA basic pistol.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
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[/FONT]NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Hard to convey in the photo, but I'm sure they are screaming on the inside.

So, you posted photos of people sitting down and studying (crawling) so you could boost my position. This is perplexing. I am not used to the police bolstering my cases.

Crawling. It's how we learn.

You don't just sit down and memorize the Holy Quran. You go to the back and start with the shorter Suras and work your way up. You just don't go run a marathon, one trains for it by running shorter distances and working his way up.

many of which served in the middle east by starting their training with "this is a gun" and this is where the bullets come from.

Ok.

Then the Cap'n or the Major signs off on those that are pre-ninjies or ninjie level. No big deal. But good luck with that in any large organization.

Nothing wrong with the basics but it appears that NRA basic pistol may be all they are going to get and IMHO that would be a travesty.

The purpose of carrying handguns is simply deterrence. I whole-heartedly agree that they should receive as much as we can fund. And if they pass they hat for money or ammo, I am more than willing to help. However, it has to start somewhere. Crawling is a great place to start. I ardently believe this is the right first step.

As we know from risk formulation and the thread after thread that I have posted on INGO those that carry handguns are more a danger to themselves and others than to rampaging Jihadi Johnnies at recruiting stations. All 2 that I am aware of.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

If you're in the National Guard (hence forth referred to as "Nasty Girls" because tradition dictates I must) then you have been through your branch's basic training. That basic training included a block of instruction on firearms. If you failed to learn what end the bullet comes out of, what not to point it at, how to load it, etc. then you probably washed out of Basic and didn't get to be a Nasty Girl anyway.

While your standard troop gets little to no pistol specific training, that does not mean the military lacks the schools for it. Who trains the MPs? Who trains CID? Now I know good and well that there are Nasty Girl MP units in the state of Indiana. I also know good and well they got pistol training. I know good and well the NRA didn't give it to them. So you're telling me we can't get the Nasty Girl recruiters quality RELEVANT training in house? While this thread has apparently assumed they must be trained like Aunt Bee's Knitting Circle, these are soldiers and as such have received the fundamentals of firearms operation and safety as part of their initial entry training.

Okay, I've been retired since 2009. Our unit had more pistol armed soldiers than probably any other unit except MPs (leaving SOCOM-type units out of the equation) and we got almost NO tactical pistol training. We qualified with our M9s twice a year and generally got 50 rounds with which to do it (and some officers had great difficulty meeting their qualification requirements) but we got almost NO training in carrying, presenting (draw, fire, reholster) or ROE-type engagement scenarios. The only place I got a semi-realistic qualification with the M9 was qualifying for Iraqi Freedom at Ft. Dix. In Iraq, we had a young WO discharge her loaded weapon THREE TIMES into a clearing barrel before somebody managed to stop her. So, no, Army pistol training for non-MPs isn't adequate for what our soldiers are potentially facing in the States.

That said, my understanding is that soldiers are going to be allowed to carry their own handguns for self-protection, and if so, plenty of soldiers own handguns and are proficient with them. State marksmanship schools are set up for small classes and are set up to teach marksmanship - not tactical handgun classes. As for teaching soldiers the NRA Basic Firearms Safety course, that sounds like a good first step and a typical cross-the-Ts-and-dot-the-I s step for documenting that soldiers are adequately trained to be allowed to carry their personal firearms for self-protection. I would not be surprised to see civilians contractors teaching law enforcement-level tactical training to selected soldiers as the next step in the process, and the final step will be demonstrating proficiency with their personal handgun. Once again, this is all an educated guess on my part, but it won't surprise me if I'm fairly close to being correct, and I'd be pretty surprised if the Guard goes with less training.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Okay, I've been retired since 2009. Our unit had more pistol armed soldiers than probably any other unit except MPs (leaving SOCOM-type units out of the equation) and we got almost NO tactical pistol training.

And that's what we are arguing for. Tactical training.

NRA Basic is NOT tactical training. Example lesson plan:

Lessons

1. 
   [*=left]Pistol Knowledge and Safe Gun Handling
   [*=left]Ammunition Knowledge and Fundamentals of Pistol Shooting
   [*=left]Firing the First Shots (includes cleaning and storage)
   [*=left]Two-handed and One-handed Standing Shooting Positions
   [*=left]Pistol Sports and Activities

That's the issue. You already know what end the bullet comes out, you know not to point it at your buddy, you know how to take it apart and clean it, etc. You don't need that. You need tactical training. You aren't getting it. You are getting a rehash of what they taught you when you were first issued your M9.

The questions from the beginning are:
Why the NRA basic?
What's after NRA Basic?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

NRA Basic is NOT tactical training.

You cannot do the Tactical Timmy crap until you learn to crawl. If anyone is discharging 3 rounds into a clearing barrel, then everyone needs to crawl.

Better yet, we all start crawling.

 

[Coach]

You cannot do the Tactical Timmy crap until you learn to crawl. If anyone is discharging 3 rounds into a clearing barrel, then everyone needs to crawl.

Better yet, we all start crawling.

Why to the strong and competent need to be held back until all of the weaklings can crawl? Tell the ones discharging rounds into the clearing barrel leave the gun alone and find some way else to contribute.

 

[Coach]

We qualified with our M9s twice a year and generally got 50 rounds with which to do it (and some officers had great difficulty meeting their qualification requirements) but we got almost NO training in carrying, presenting (draw, fire, reholster) or ROE-type engagement scenarios. The only place I got a semi-realistic qualification with the M9 was qualifying for Iraqi Freedom at Ft. Dix. In Iraq, we had a young WO discharge her loaded weapon THREE TIMES into a clearing barrel before somebody managed to stop her. So, no, Army pistol training for non-MPs isn't adequate for what our soldiers are potentially facing in the States.
QUOTE]

My point is that they needs this type of training. Not the NRA Basic pistol course. If the NRA basic pistol training is helping anyone in the Guard then the people in charge of training are not doing their job.

 

[in625shooter]

We qualified with our M9s twice a year and generally got 50 rounds with which to do it (and some officers had great difficulty meeting their qualification requirements) but we got almost NO training in carrying, presenting (draw, fire, reholster) or ROE-type engagement scenarios. The only place I got a semi-realistic qualification with the M9 was qualifying for Iraqi Freedom at Ft. Dix. In Iraq, we had a young WO discharge her loaded weapon THREE TIMES into a clearing barrel before somebody managed to stop her. So, no, Army pistol training for non-MPs isn't adequate for what our soldiers are potentially facing in the States.
QUOTE]


My point is that they needs this type of training. Not the NRA Basic pistol course. If the NRA basic pistol training is helping anyone in the Guard then the people in charge of training are not doing their job.

I agree 100% but as a former (retired military) with both active and guard time the thing that stands in the way with this as well as all other issues that seem to handicap the Military.....someone in power somewhere thinks it is their job to say NO, or cause resistance simply because They don't like it.

Training or imporved training is no different. As far as the young lady discharging rounds, unfourtunatly depending upon the members sex or other factors the administration gives some a free pass and front line supervisers be damned if you even try and correct it outside of stopping it for safety reasons. They will be back and allowed to re arm etc. Glad I am retired from that part is all I can say.

 

[NHT3]

Why do the strong and competent need to be held back until all of the weaklings can crawl? Tell the ones discharging rounds into the clearing barrel leave the gun alone and find another way to contribute.

Exactly.. I would imagine the ones that are still "crawling" have no real interest in learning so trying to bring them up to speed would, more than likely be pointless. They need real world skills to practice that might allow them to survive a real gunfight and NRA basic pistol is NOT about that at all. I can't understand why Guy Relford is mum on what else is expected from the soldiers?? He eluded to the fact that something else was going to be expected of them so they must have told him something?? If anyone knows how to contact him directly I would be very curious about what he has to tell us on that subject.


[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member[/FONT][FONT=&amp]-- [/FONT][FONT=&amp]GSSF member[/FONT]
Certified Glock armorer-M&P armorer & 1911mechanic
NRA Basic pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] /[/FONT][FONT=&amp] RSO[/FONT]