Giffords - on Behalf of Philadelphia - Files Lawsuits with JSD Supply and Polymer80

[JAL]

In spite of Federal Law (PLCAA) . . .
Philadelphia didn't write the lawsuit, it was outsourced to Giffords that wrote the lawsuit and filed it on behalf of Philadelphia. Giffords is leveraging on the city having standing before the court, and is using it as a cause of action.



It's not about prevailing in the lawsuit, it's the cost of the process, intended to bankrupt firearm companies in the litigation process, just as they did with Remington.

Mayor Kenney wants to sue everyone in the firearms business out of business:

 

[Mgderf]

In spite of Federal Law (PLCAA) . . .
Philadelphia didn't write the lawsuit, it was outsourced to Giffords that wrote the lawsuit and filed it on behalf of Philadelphia. Giffords is leveraging on the city with standing before the court, and as a cause of action.



It's not about prevailing in the lawsuit, it's the cost of the process, intended to bankrupt firearm companies in the litigation process, just as they did with Remington.

Mayor Kenney wants to sue everyone in the firearms business out of business:

Isn't he the moron that stated,
"The common denominator in all of these shootings is the gun?".
In my book, statements like this should automatically disqualify them from being taken seriously in any context.

 

[tomcat13]

Sadly-Just Another Politician doing Politician things.
Philly Mayor is also probably Wondering Why All those Folks are Leaving Californication.

 

[WebSnyper]

Wait, this may be Hogsett's next trick.

 

[JAL]

Isn't he the moron that stated,
"The common denominator in all of these shootings is the gun?".
In my book, statements like this should automatically disqualify them from being taken seriously in any context.

Yes.
The common denominator is actually the criminal. What a concept!

 

[Libertarian01]

Here are some news articles regarding this issue.

First, it looks like Gifford's group is doing co-counsel work, not running the thing.

Second, if Polymer80 & JSD aren't really firearms manufacturers then what do we care? They aren't legally protected, right...?

I get what they (Poly&JSD) are doing but it does sound like they're trying to skirt the law. It would analogous to me opening a business that offers savings accounts, checking accounts, loans, and other financial services but NOT calling myself a bank or credit union so I can thumb my nose at state and federal banking laws. A hard sell.

Third, it does seem (not taking sides here) that there has been a significant increase in ghost guns being used in crimes. Good marketing or word of mouth, but a measurable increase. The popularity seems to be catching on.

My question would start with the receiver. It is my understanding that this would be the legal crux of what a "firearm" is and whether they ship one. If so that could be problematic.

Anywho's, here cometh the the news.

https://www.phila.gov/2023-07-05-ci...s-of-ghost-guns-polymer80-inc-and-jsd-supply/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/philly-leaders-sue-ghost-gun-manufacturers-days-after/story?id=100768612

Philly announces lawsuit against ‘suppliers of ghost guns’ following mass shooting

The lawsuit says Polymer80, Inc. and JSD Supply “intentionally undermine” federal and state law by selling firearm kits without background checks.

whyy.org

Philly filing lawsuit against "ghost gun" suppliers

bearingarms.com

Regards,

Doug

 

[WebSnyper]

Here are some news articles regarding this issue.

First, it looks like Gifford's group is doing co-counsel work, not running the thing.

Second, if Polymer80 & JSD aren't really firearms manufacturers then what do we care? They aren't legally protected, right...?

I get what they (Poly&JSD) are doing but it does sound like they're trying to skirt the law. It would analogous to me opening a business that offers savings accounts, checking accounts, loans, and other financial services but NOT calling myself a bank or credit union so I can thumb my nose at state and federal banking laws. A hard sell.

Third, it does seem (not taking sides here) that there has been a significant increase in ghost guns being used in crimes. Good marketing or word of mouth, but a measurable increase. The popularity seems to be catching on.

My question would start with the receiver. It is my understanding that this would be the legal crux of what a "firearm" is and whether they ship one. If so that could be problematic.

Anywho's, here cometh the the news.

https://www.phila.gov/2023-07-05-ci...s-of-ghost-guns-polymer80-inc-and-jsd-supply/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/philly-leaders-sue-ghost-gun-manufacturers-days-after/story?id=100768612

Philly announces lawsuit against ‘suppliers of ghost guns’ following mass shooting

The lawsuit says Polymer80, Inc. and JSD Supply “intentionally undermine” federal and state law by selling firearm kits without background checks.

whyy.org

Philly filing lawsuit against "ghost gun" suppliers

bearingarms.com

Regards,

Doug

Court Rejects ATF Final Rule on Frames and Receivers :: Guns.com

Further, he held that the government's argument that ATF had made such sweeping rule changes in the past without Congressional approval, was flawed.

www.guns.com

 

[WebSnyper]

Here are some news articles regarding this issue.

First, it looks like Gifford's group is doing co-counsel work, not running the thing.

Second, if Polymer80 & JSD aren't really firearms manufacturers then what do we care? They aren't legally protected, right...?

I get what they (Poly&JSD) are doing but it does sound like they're trying to skirt the law. It would analogous to me opening a business that offers savings accounts, checking accounts, loans, and other financial services but NOT calling myself a bank or credit union so I can thumb my nose at state and federal banking laws. A hard sell.

Third, it does seem (not taking sides here) that there has been a significant increase in ghost guns being used in crimes. Good marketing or word of mouth, but a measurable increase. The popularity seems to be catching on.

My question would start with the receiver. It is my understanding that this would be the legal crux of what a "firearm" is and whether they ship one. If so that could be problematic.

Anywho's, here cometh the the news.

https://www.phila.gov/2023-07-05-ci...s-of-ghost-guns-polymer80-inc-and-jsd-supply/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/philly-leaders-sue-ghost-gun-manufacturers-days-after/story?id=100768612

Philly announces lawsuit against ‘suppliers of ghost guns’ following mass shooting

The lawsuit says Polymer80, Inc. and JSD Supply “intentionally undermine” federal and state law by selling firearm kits without background checks.

whyy.org

Philly filing lawsuit against "ghost gun" suppliers

bearingarms.com

Regards,

Doug

And we care because next up would be personal sales, etc, which don't require background checks.

If the 2nd amendment were truly not being infringed on, all firearms could be purchased like this.

Prosecute the criminal that commits the crime, not the inanimate object.

And how close does one have to get when following a law to be considered "skirting".

 

[Libertarian01]

And we care because next up would be personal sales, etc, which don't require background checks.

If the 2nd amendment were truly not being infringed on, all firearms could be purchased like this.

Prosecute the criminal that commits the crime, not the inanimate object.

And how close does one have to get when following a law to be considered "skirting".

IF the companies are violating current laws, then they ARE criminals. That's a big if.

WE always say we don't need more gun laws, just prosecute the ones that are on the books.

Well...???

 

[Mgderf]

IF the companies are violating current laws, then they ARE criminals. That's a big if.

WE always say we don't need more gun laws, just prosecute the ones that are on the books.

Well...???

These companies are not breaking, or even "skirting" current federal or state laws. See post #7.
If the parts being sold aren't firearms, then butt out ATF!

 

[WebSnyper]

IF the companies are violating current laws, then they ARE criminals. That's a big if.

WE always say we don't need more gun laws, just prosecute the ones that are on the books.

Well...???

The lawsuits filed appear to be civil cases.

And at least from a federal standpoint, courts just tossed out ATF'S attempts to regulate these partially manufactured components (see my link in previous post). At least in one of the articles you linked to, part of the city's lawsuit was indicating that these companies were "undermining federal law", etc. Given the federal court ruling I linked to... not so much.

Also:

Back in 2020, City Council approved my legislation regulating the manufacture of ghost guns in Philadelphia and the transfer of the tools and equipment used to make ghost guns. The lawsuit being filed by the Kenney Administration is another step by City leaders to do everything we can to get illegal guns off of our streets.”

Don't think these companies were "manufacturing" these in Philly. Wouldn't that be on someone actually putting these kits together in the city? I'd see this "legislation" getting challenged as well.

 

[JAL]

. . .
First, it looks like Gifford's group is doing co-counsel work, not running the thing.

Second, if Polymer80 & JSD aren't really firearms manufacturers then what do we care? They aren't legally protected, right...?

Third, it does seem (not taking sides here) that there has been a significant increase in ghost guns being used in crimes. Good marketing or word of mouth, but a measurable increase. The popularity seems to be catching on.

My question would start with the receiver. It is my understanding that this would be the legal crux of what a "firearm" is and whether they ship one. If so that could be problematic.
. . .
Regards,

Doug

• 2005 PLCAA protects manufacturers, sellers and importers of firearms, ammunition, and component parts of firearms and ammunition. Polymer80 and JSD are legally protected. Those that crafted the bill realized if they only encompassed finished firearms, the parts and components makers would be sued out of existence. No parts or components? No firearms.
• Giffords wrote the lawsuit for Philadelphia, who is a party in name only, a new strategy for Giffords to put all gun and gun parts makers out of business. Their goal is 100% complete disarmament of everyone. They are actively seeking cities, counties and states that will let them do all the heavy lifting legal work in anti-gun lawsuits. They don't have any standing before any court on their own. They need a government entity that does, or can attempt to claim it does. Neither Polymer80 nor JSD are violating any criminal laws.
• "Ghost Guns" is a scary catchall invented by gun-grabbers whose goal is 100% complete disarmament of all citizens; it includes all firearms with eradicated serial numbers in addition to all personally made firearms. Many alleged "ghost guns" recovered from criminals and crime scenes have had their serial numbers obliterated by drilling or machining them out (filing or grinding doesn't work) in violation of the 1968 GCA. Serial numbers were not required on firearms prior to the 1968 GCA. Many made before that do not have serial numbers, or have very ambiguous and repeated numbers on them akin to lot numbers.
• Personally made firearms have a very long history and tradition dating back to the founding of the Colonies in North America. BATFE, on a VERY DIRECT ORDER from Biden attempted to redefine "firearm" per the 1934 National Firearms Act to include anything that could be "readily made" into a firearm with BATFE Rulemaking so nebulous that only BATFE "experts" can define what is and isn't a firearm by examining it. Under their new rule, a solid rectangular metal or polymer billet can be "defined" by BATFE as a firearm if they so choose. This was recently struck down by a District Court in Texas as unconstitutional, and that decision covers Polymer80 and JSD Supply along with four more companies (by my count). That court completely "vacated" the rule; i.e. BATFE can't go back and rewrite it to "fix" it. That means "80 percent" parts are not "firearms" under the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA. Neither company will ship to a number of states and locales where local laws currently prohibit their possession (which will ultimately be struck down by SCOTUS). Nevertheless, they're still protected by the PLCAA.
• In United States v. Randy Price (Oct 2022), his indictment for having a firearm with an obliterated serial number was struck down by the Southern District of West Virginia; BATFE has appealed to the 4th Circuit where it's currently being heard. The District Court found there was no "history and tradition" of requiring a serial number on a firearm in keeping with the SCOTUS cases cited in the next bullet. (His indictment for "felon in possession" has been upheld.) Stay tuned, serial numbers on firearms may bite the dust.
• 9mm semi-automatic pistols are the most commonly used firearms in crimes. By your logic, they should all be banned and seized from civilians to stop crime. Under the 2008 SCOTUS Heller Decision, as repeatedly reinforced by their 2010 McDonald, 2016 Caetano, and 2022 Bruen Decisions, weapons of any kind "in common use for lawful purposes" are "protected arms" under the 2nd Amendment.
• Pennsylvania has a preemption statute that prohibits Philadelphia from doing anything to regulate firearms or ammunition. They're ultimately going to be bitch slapped in court for attempting to go around it.
• We should care about this because it's Biden's and Democrats' goal to create a national database via Universal Background Checks of all firearms and firearm owners, and to ban anyone from making their own firearms. It's the first step in the Democrats' ultimate goal for 100% complete disarmament of the entire country with complete obliteration of the 2nd Amendment. This goal has already been stated numerous times -- starting with Senator Dianne Feinstein and continuing with numerous governors and mayors -- plus Gavin Newsom who wants a Constitutional Amendment that completely repeals the 2nd Amendment.

EDIT:
From a practical standpoint, unless one goes into making multiple firearms from 80% frames or receivers in quantity on an "assembly line" of some type, it's much cheaper to buy a complete, comparable firearm. It isn't just the cost of the 80% lower and jig with drill/mill bits. One needs a hand router and drill press to do it right. Now add in all the gunsmithing tools and fixtures, plus the bare parts to assemble a finished firearm. Then price the cost of the comparable firearm complete from Palmetto State Armory. The PSA will be much cheaper. (It's still much cheaper than starting with a stripped frame/receiver bought through an FFL.)

In the illegal gang-banger firearms black market underworld, nearly all are stolen firearms with obliterated serial numbers, and they're cheaper to come by than DIY built from 80% kits. Indeed, the stolen are usually at least five years old when recovered by law enforcement, and they they're passed around among criminals for cash, in trade, or sometimes for free. The typical reason for someone building a firearm from an 80% frame or receiver is usually to do it "because they can" and enjoy building things to create exactly what they want, or because they believe the finished firearm can remain "off the grid" with no original 4473 ever having been filled out for it. The latter is a bit delusional as there are too many ways for the Alphabet Agencies to track down what someone has bought with enough subpoenas to enough companies, banks, and retailers.

The politicians that claim you can mail-order a box of parts and assemble a finished firearm with a couple screwdrivers and a pair of slip-joint pliers are lying out their asses. One of them claimed 14 year-olds were doing it on their kitchen tables in five minutes. I've assembled AR's from bare parts, uppers and lowers, and have done some significant pistol work to replace parts well beyond complete field stripping. Not something you're going to do on the kitchen table with a couple screwdrivers, a pair of slip-joint pliers and a carpenter's claw hammer. They're so full of male bovine fecal matter their eyes are brown.

 

[nwebb01]

• 2005 PLCAA protects manufacturers, sellers and importers of firearms, ammunition, and component parts of firearms and ammunition. Polymer80 and JSD are legally protected. Those that crafted the bill realized if they only encompassed finished firearms, the parts and components makers would be sued out of existence. No parts or components? No firearms.
• Giffords wrote the lawsuit for Philadelphia, who is a party in name only, a new strategy for Giffords to put all gun and gun parts makers out of business. Their goal is 100% complete disarmament of everyone. They are actively seeking cities, counties and states that will let them do all the heavy lifting legal work in anti-gun lawsuits. They don't have any standing before any court on their own. They need a government entity that does, or can attempt to claim it does. Neither Polymer80 nor JSD are violating any criminal laws.
• "Ghost Guns" is a scary catchall invented by gun-grabbers whose goal is 100% complete disarmament of all citizens; it includes all firearms with eradicated serial numbers in addition to all personally made firearms. Many alleged "ghost guns" recovered from criminals and crime scenes have had their serial numbers obliterated by drilling or machining them out (filing or grinding doesn't work) in violation of the 1968 GCA. Serial numbers were not required on firearms prior to the 1968 GCA. Many made before that do not have serial numbers, or have very ambiguous and repeated numbers on them akin to lot numbers.
• Personally made firearms have a very long history and tradition dating back to the founding of the Colonies in North America. BATFE, on a VERY DIRECT ORDER from Biden attempted to redefine "firearm" per the 1934 National Firearms Act to include anything that could be "readily made" into a firearm with BATFE Rulemaking so nebulous that only BATFE "experts" can define what is and isn't a firearm by examining it. Under their new rule, a solid rectangular metal or polymer billet can be "defined" by BATFE as a firearm if they so choose. This was recently struck down by a District Court in Texas as unconstitutional, and that decision covers Polymer80 and JSD Supply along with four more companies (by my count). That court completely "vacated" the rule; i.e. BATFE can't go back and rewrite it to "fix" it. That means "80 percent" parts are not "firearms" under the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA. Neither company will ship to a number of states and locales where local laws currently prohibit their possession (which will ultimately be struck down by SCOTUS). Nevertheless, they're still protected by the PLCAA.
• In United States v. Randy Price (Oct 2022), his indictment for having a firearm with an obliterated serial number was struck down by the Southern District of West Virginia; BATFE has appealed to the 4th Circuit where it's currently being heard. The District Court found there was no "history and tradition" of requiring a serial number on a firearm in keeping with the SCOTUS cases cited in the next bullet. (His indictment for "felon in possession" has been upheld.) Stay tuned, serial numbers on firearms may bite the dust.
• 9mm semi-automatic pistols are the most commonly used firearms in crimes. By your logic, they should all be banned and seized from civilians to stop crime. Under the 2008 SCOTUS Heller Decision, as repeatedly reinforced by their 2010 McDonald, 2016 Caetano, and 2022 Bruen Decisions, weapons of any kind "in common use for lawful purposes" are "protected arms" under the 2nd Amendment.
• Pennsylvania has a preemption statute that prohibits Philadelphia from doing anything to regulate firearms or ammunition. They're ultimately going to be bitch slapped in court for attempting to go around it.
• We should care about this because it's Biden's and Democrats' goal to create a national database via Universal Background Checks of all firearms and firearm owners, and to ban anyone from making their own firearms. It's the first step in the Democrats' ultimate goal for 100% complete disarmament of the entire country with complete obliteration of the 2nd Amendment. This goal has already been stated numerous times -- starting with Senator Dianne Feinstein and continuing with numerous governors and mayors -- plus Gavin Newsom who wants a Constitutional Amendment that completely repeals the 2nd Amendment.

EDIT:
From a practical standpoint, unless one goes into making multiple firearms from 80% frames or receivers in quantity on an "assembly line" of some type, it's much cheaper to buy a complete, comparable firearm. It isn't just the cost of the 80% lower and jig with drill/mill bits. One needs a hand router and drill press to do it right. Now add in all the gunsmithing tools and fixtures, plus the bare parts to assemble a finished firearm. Then price the cost of the comparable firearm complete from Palmetto State Armory. The PSA will be much cheaper. (It's still much cheaper than starting with a stripped frame/receiver bought through an FFL.)

In the illegal gang-banger firearms black market underworld, nearly all are stolen firearms with obliterated serial numbers, and they're cheaper to come by than DIY built from 80% kits. Indeed, the stolen are usually at least five years old when recovered by law enforcement, and they they're passed around among criminals for cash, in trade, or sometimes for free. The typical reason for someone building a firearm from an 80% frame or receiver is usually to do it "because they can" and enjoy building things to create exactly what they want, or because they believe the finished firearm can remain "off the grid" with no original 4473 ever having been filled out for it. The latter is a bit delusional as there are too many ways for the Alphabet Agencies to track down what someone has bought with enough subpoenas to enough companies, banks, and retailers.

The politicians that claim you can mail-order a box of parts and assemble a finished firearm with a couple screwdrivers and a pair of slip-joint pliers are lying out their asses. One of them claimed 14 year-olds were doing it on their kitchen tables in five minutes. I've assembled AR's from bare parts, uppers and lowers, and have done some significant pistol work to replace parts well beyond complete field stripping. Not something you're going to do on the kitchen table with a couple screwdrivers, a pair of slip-joint pliers and a carpenter's claw hammer. They're so full of male bovine fecal matter their eyes are brown.

Good information and well thought out. Thank you!

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Unless a gun manufacturer or gun parts/accessories/supplies manufacturer is doing something morally repugnant, gun owners should support them against all these sorts of cases. Organizations like Giffords have only one intent: end the private ownership of guns. They’re going to attack any part of that they can to ultimately achieve their goal.

They know the legal process is the punishment. Ultimate legal victory would be nice but the main objective is to make it so expensive or laborious that these sorts of companies will just give up and go away.

 

[wtburnette]

I don't understand why, when companies prevail against these types of lawsuits, they aren't awarded their lawyer fees/court costs, since it's blatantly obvious they're being used to try to bankrupt honest companies who follow the law.

 

[Alamo]

Organizations like Giffords have only one intent: end the private ownership of guns. They’re going to attack any part of that they can to ultimately achieve their goal.

Bingo

 

[bgcatty]

$crew the Giffords and their BS organization! I’m tired of these idiots forgetting the plain meaning of the 2A. And while I’m at condemning Giffords, the same goes for that idiot Bloomberg and his group of goons!

 

[BiscuitsandGravy]

I'm sure this will get some users feathers in a bunch...
IMO, you're either all-in- 2A or not. No ifs, ands, butters or fudds. If you don't get what is going on by now with the anti's play book, God help you.

Thanks again JAL for laying it all out so crystal clear.

 

[BigRed]

The second amendment to the constitution of the united States merely documents a natural right that was endowed man LONG before the constitution was ever even thought.

The second amandment is a restriction upon state, not some ******* gift from state...not some ******* allowance by state.

 

[Ingomike]

Sad that on a gun forum there are those defending infringement…