EPA Releases Tons Of Pollution Into Colorado River

[Alpo]

I said I was done here, so I won't comment. But, I found 34 fotos from the area on the Denver Post server that might be of interest to you.

PHOTOS: Animas River flooded with contaminated mine water

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I don't know how many of you that are ragging on the EPA here have: 1) ever been in a gold mine in the Rockies, 2) ever worked construction or 3) ever had things unravel on you in a serious way when you thought you had accounted for all the important variables. By the nature of the responses, you either have not, or you just hate the government.

Stuff happens. Mines collapse, tectonic forces shift things around, rocks crack..

Never worked in a gold mine, have worked in construction including remodeling including lead, and yes I've had things unravel on me. But not generally in a serious way. Why? Because we planned for it. Just for background I did industrial cleaning, it required up to 80 hr hazmat, 10 hr OSHA, 8 hr benzene, confined space certified, fresh air certified, scaffolding competent person and iirc a couple of other certifications. If we fed up were were held liable. Yep stuff happened. but we knew what could happen and planned for it. And made sure that if something happened we would have the equipment on hand to mitigate it. Now generally I will admit it was mainly for personnel injuries, but we planned for environmental problems as well.

I don't think the EPA is blameless.. As to this incident, particularly, S*** happens. It probably won't be the last sludge dam breech in the high country.
So, some balance needs to be set between the idea that capitalists, acting in their own interests, will do the right thing for the environment and the communities in which these businesses operate. A license to do business not a lifetime exemption to seek a profit at the expense of killing your neighbors.

First BS, you have done everything you can to hold the EPA blameless in this, hell your next sentence quoted shows it.

Yep some balance is needed, perhaps the locals and not so locals that are effected can sue and get compensation for their damages?

I would suspect that if this had been a "disaster", a bunch of EPA heads would have rolled. That might satisfy the bloodlust of some. Perhaps not.

What the EPA has done post-breech has been better than prior years. Admission that they made a mistake, lots of testing, public disclosure and, as things stand now, no continuing crisis.

And, at the end of day, we still have 100's of mines that have been abandoned and need remedial action. Should we wait for a republican congress to get things done the proper conservative way?

Oh....wait......

You mean like as quoted from the EPA? Per the EPA when a much smaller scale release was done it was a criminal offense and had iirc correctly a 68 million dollar criminal fine.

Yes, this mine was closed. My understanding is that another mine in the same area was operating until recently. That mine was closed and sealed, causing water to migrate through fissures into other mines, thereby raising their water levels and causing them to begin to discharge effluents where they had been in a relatively "dormant" state in the past.

IIRC and please correct me with with cites, this mine was licensed to operate recently but didn't, this mine has been closed since the early 1920s they had a permit to operate in the 1990s but they never actually mined, license was rescinded in 2005 but doesn't list the reason.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I said I was done here, so I won't comment. But, I found 34 fotos from the area on the Denver Post server that might be of interest to you.

PHOTOS: Animas River flooded with contaminated mine water

And how much of that would have leaked out without the mining? In one of the links above that you iirc liked it stated that the fracturing and mining allowed water into the natural springs in the mines.

 

[Alpo]

OK. 200 - 300 gpm was flowing out of the adit prior to any contractor work. The contractors apparently spiked the base of the dam left by the miners. It was supposed to have been concrete. As it turns out, it was not. That is the latest information I have.

I think there is a difference between the EPA coming in to attempt to remedy a situation and a for-profit company discharging hazmats because of negligence. Elk River was a for-profit operation. To me, that is different.

We generally do a pretty good job in the USA with hazmat. But, there are problems on occasion. And just like there are bad guys stealing your personal information, and drug dealers breaking the law in every city, there are businesses who don't care about the effects on others from their operations. I'm not going to stand up for them and then point a finger at the EPA, which is, in essence what your generalizations do.

 

[jamil]

OK. 200 - 300 gpm was flowing out of the adit prior to any contractor work. The contractors apparently spiked the base of the dam left by the miners. It was supposed to have been concrete. As it turns out, it was not. That is the latest information I have.

I think there is a difference between the EPA coming in to attempt to remedy a situation and a for-profit company discharging hazmats because of negligence. Elk River was a for-profit operation. To me, that is different.

We generally do a pretty good job in the USA with hazmat. But, there are problems on occasion. And just like there are bad guys stealing your personal information, and drug dealers breaking the law in every city, there are businesses who don't care about the effects on others from their operations. I'm not going to stand up for them and then point a finger at the EPA, which is, in essence what your generalizations do.

I think you're presenting a false dichotomy, it seems the crux of which is "profit". But profit has nothing to do with whether the EPA is responsible for the spill or not. Do you think that being a government agency somehow makes them immune to hiring crappy people? Have you not heard the term, "close enough for government work?"

Despite the EPA's own admission that it was their fault, you won't allow yourself to believe that the supposed knights in shining armor could themselves be negligent. It's like the doctor in my allegory. Yes, the patient abused his own health. But the negligent doctor was responsible for making a worse situation of it.

You seem so certain a capitalist is to blame for it. This whole thread, in addition to blaming the mining company, who is certainly not blameless, you've blamed the EPA's contractor and not the EPA. But Gina McCarthy's own words, the contractors were working under the direct supervision of EPA personnel. They did as the EPA directed them to do. The EPA itself is not blaming the contractors. Why should you? The EPA admitted blame for the spill. Why won't you accept that? Is your ideal of "profit is bad" so important to you that you must defend it against facts?

 

[Alpo]

1) The EPA admitted responsibility for its actions
2) The "crappy" pejorative for the subcontractor is yours. It seems that these guys are a good-sized organization involved in 100's of million in cleanups prior to this. That's the problem with your posts. You tend to weave your own message in among the facts. Stick to fewer adjectives and we might be able to debate things a bit more often.
3) Knights in Shining Armor. There you go again. Fewer adjectives make you seem less strident.


What I would like to know is what you would have done with no information on a 100 year old mine that was leaking. Leave it to the State and the towns of Silverton and Durango? Do you suppose they had better information?

Apparently, this mine was not flooded until an active mine shut down and they sealed their adit, creating a situation where water sought another outlet.

What would you have done? No blueprints, no real information on the geology and a leaking mine.

What is it you expect should have been done?

The Animas watershed is one of the most contaminated areas in the state of Colorado. Smelting operations and mining have been going on for more than a century.

Perhaps people need to dust off the report on the Summitville Mine disaster which happened back in 1992. The state was/is lax on holding the companies responsible for cleanup. Instead, they extract what they want and then declare bankruptcy. They walk away all the while the waters collect and seep out carrying the toxic stew of heavy metals. This is not EPAs fault! Silverton needs to get over their suspicions and allow the area to be put on the NPL. If nothing else, by showing that they care about the environment they just may attract more tourists. Why would I want to go there if there is all that toxic waste and materials in the environment? Not my idea of a vacation stop!

Below is the discharge from the bulkheaded Banderas Mine. The Koehler mine is leaking too. It is easy to read one report and view the disaster as an isolated incident. It is part of an ongoing problem in the state and will not go away if the EPA abandons any effort to remedy the problems.

 

[Alpo]

And here is a little on the Summitville Mine, brought to you by the nice Americans to the north of us.

The mining involved the treatment of pyritic ore with a sodium cyanide solution to leach the gold out of the ore—heap leaching (see also cyanide process). The solution (leachate) was then removed from the ore and the valuable metals extracted using activated carbon. SCMCI leached around 10 million tons of ore on a 73-acre (0.3 km[SUP]2[/SUP]) heap leach pad. The mining operations were finished in October 1991 with the leaching continuing until March 1992. Galactic Resources filed for bankruptcy. A total of 294,365 troy ounces (9,155.8 kg) of gold and 319,814 troy ounces (9,947.3 kg) of silver were recovered. SCMCI then closed the site and converted on-site equipment for the detoxification process, with around 160 million U.S. gallons (610,000 m³) of stored water needing treatment. After the company insolvency proceedings were completed in a British Columbia court, the US Government declared the site a superfund cleanup site and spent $155,000,000 of public funds cleaning up the site.

 

[IndyDave1776]

1) The EPA admitted responsibility for its actions
2) The "crappy" pejorative for the subcontractor is yours. It seems that these guys are a good-sized organization involved in 100's of million in cleanups prior to this. That's the problem with your posts. You tend to weave your own message in among the facts. Stick to fewer adjectives and we might be able to debate things a bit more often.
3) Knights in Shining Armor. There you go again. Fewer adjectives make you seem less strident.


What I would like to know is what you would have done with no information on a 100 year old mine that was leaking. Leave it to the State and the towns of Silverton and Durango? Do you suppose they had better information?

Apparently, this mine was not flooded until an active mine shut down and they sealed their adit, creating a situation where water sought another outlet.

What would you have done? No blueprints, no real information on the geology and a leaking mine.

What is it you expect should have been done?

1. Why should the EPA be able to admit responsibility, say 'oops' and go on when anyone else would have been fined into bankruptcy for much less? Why does being a .gov agency who has no problem lording authority over far lesser violators get a free pass?

2. I don't care how much good that contractor had done in the past. It wouldn't gain anyone else not in the employ of the EPA a way to avoid ruinous punishments.

3. A 100 year old mine with no blueprints, no information, no one who remembers anything...IDGAF, if no one else gets the same consideration, the EPA personnel responsible should face double the penalty they would impose on anyone else since, after all, they are the 'experts' with delusions of godhood who lord ruinous penalties over everyone else no matter how unreasonable the .gov demands.

4. What one expects to have been done...would be for those involved to operate under the same rules as anyone else.

 

[Alpo]

What would you propose? Public floggings? Perhaps a hanging? I understand that you hate your government and the EPA. I have not heard one shred of a solution.

The operation "under the same rules" would be to not get involved. Kettle Korn and train rides in Silverton while the mines continue to leech.

It is obvious that you don't "GAF".

 

[IndyDave1776]

What would you propose? Public floggings? Perhaps a hanging? I understand that you hate your government and the EPA. I have not heard one shred of a solution.

The operation "under the same rules" would be to not get involved. Kettle Korn and train rides in Silverton while the mines continue to leech.

It is obvious that you don't "GAF".

You are missing my point. People who merit sitting in judgment and judging others with extreme prejudice for lesser offenses do not deserve to be able to say 'oops' and walk away. If they are sufficiently expert to judge and judge as they do, they had damned well better know what they are doing, and they obviously don't. I don't know a thing about mining save for it being a matter of digging valuable materials out of the ground, but I do know that if you know enough to make onerous demands on others you know enough to be able to do the job to your own standards yourself, not be excused from those standards. This is the same basic argument I have against qualified immunity being available to police (i.e., held to the standard of what a 'reasonable' person would believe appropriate to the circumstances) while the rest of us are held to the Monday morning quarterback judgment on a decision that had to be made in a split second when we don't even claim to be professionals.

 

[Alpo]

That's understandable. When a general makes a mistake and soldiers die, it might have repurcussions. It might not. When presidents start a war, we clearly see no consequences other than the judgement of history, which doesn't warm the hearts of the widows and orphans.

I don't know what the proper penalty should be. I think we need to understand what the actual damage is. Fortunately, they took downstream water samples before the plume flowed that far. The coloration is mostly iron oxide which pretty upbiquitous in the area and hard see what harm it really does. The other metals....we'll just have to see how bad it was.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

OK. 200 - 300 gpm was flowing out of the adit prior to any contractor work. The contractors apparently spiked the base of the dam left by the miners. It was supposed to have been concrete. As it turns out, it was not. That is the latest information I have.

I think there is a difference between the EPA coming in to attempt to remedy a situation and a for-profit company discharging hazmats because of negligence. Elk River was a for-profit operation. To me, that is different.

Do you have a cite for your latest info? According to info released by the EPA they wanted to test the pollutants., if it was leaking 200-300 gpm that should have provided plenty of samples for pollution. On who's orders did the contractors spike the base of the dam? And the dam was left by the miners? Really? According to at least two of the above links the dam was put in place by the EPA after they suspended operations a year ago.

The EPA is a for profit oganization, they do everything they can to get more money. At least in everything but name only. Does this give them a reason to scream for more money from congress?

1) The EPA admitted responsibility for its actions
2) The "crappy" pejorative for the subcontractor is yours. It seems that these guys are a good-sized organization involved in 100's of million in cleanups prior to this. That's the problem with your posts. You tend to weave your own message in among the facts. Stick to fewer adjectives and we might be able to debate things a bit more often.
3) Knights in Shining Armor. There you go again. Fewer adjectives make you seem less strident.


What I would like to know is what you would have done with no information on a 100 year old mine that was leaking. Leave it to the State and the towns of Silverton and Durango? Do you suppose they had better information?

Apparently, this mine was not flooded until an active mine shut down and they sealed their adit, creating a situation where water sought another outlet.

What would you have done? No blueprints, no real information on the geology and a leaking mine.

What is it you expect should have been done?

IIRC the EPA didn't just state responsibility, they stated they were negligent and that their was iiirc malfeasance in this operation.

2) I worked for a well known industrial cleaning company, I personally worked jobs up to 4 states away. Is that 100's of millions of clean up you state in dollars or in individual cleanups? If in dollars the company I worked for easily met that, yes they were crappy.

Where do you get they had no info on the mine? While info from 100 years ago may not be up to current standards they had it, according to news reports they had been studying it for the past 5 years. They were the ones that put the dam in place in the past 2 years.

What would you propose? Public floggings? Perhaps a hanging? I understand that you hate your government and the EPA. I have not heard one shred of a solution.

The operation "under the same rules" would be to not get involved. Kettle Korn and train rides in Silverton while the mines continue to leech.

It is obvious that you don't "GAF".

For govt organizations either of your first two suggestion would be appropriate. And I don't hate my govt, I dislike the current bureaucratic BS that is the govt. Along with most of the current bureaucrats running it.

Crap happened 100 years ago, locals were getting it under control, feds came in and really fed things up.

And yes I GIF, because the govt Fed things up, same as I would if a private company fed things up. And "under the same rules" doesn't apply to the govt. They set the rules, and if I'm not mistaken the rules have been followed by the mining companies. The govt messed up on this one. Just admit it.

 

[Alpo]

The place to start is the Denver Post. You can google it and the Animas spill is linked at the top of the page. Lots of information. And, you should read the user comments to the article. Those responses are from local people who live with these problems.

As to the contractor, all of that information is provided: Environmental Restoration (ER) LLCThey are a Missouri-based company and one of the largest EPA contractors. You can get detailed info on what they have worked on. The units in my post were in $.

There is a difference in the types of projects that you worked on and Superfund sites related to mines in Colorado (or sites that should be superfund sites). The Summit mine alone cost $155,000,000 to remediate. And while that was difficult, smaller hardrock mines are not open pit mines like Summit and are much more difficult to remediate. Water flows. Water gains pressure (about .43 psi) per drop of lineal foot. Water sitting at the bottom of a deep mine can do its own "fracking". And yes, there is natural leeching that would go on whether humans were present or not. If humans weren't present, it wouldn't matter. But, since we are here and choose to live next to these places, water quality is an issue and the mines have to be dealt with.

As to the EPA's success rate overall? Hard to say. I know they are generally well thought of in their remediation efforts and despised in their enforcement role.

Animas River spill makes Silverton even warier of EPA - The Denver Post

The above link has a skype video that is worth watching. Again, read the comments at the bottom to get some sense of the local (not unanimous) opinion.

 

[jamil]

1) The EPA admitted responsibility for its actions
2) The "crappy" pejorative for the subcontractor is yours. It seems that these guys are a good-sized organization involved in 100's of million in cleanups prior to this. That's the problem with your posts. You tend to weave your own message in among the facts. Stick to fewer adjectives and we might be able to debate things a bit more often.
3) Knights in Shining Armor. There you go again. Fewer adjectives make you seem less strident.


What I would like to know is what you would have done with no information on a 100 year old mine that was leaking. Leave it to the State and the towns of Silverton and Durango? Do you suppose they had better information?

First, understand my tone. I'm saying this with anger or malice. I am simply stating facts as I understand them.

1) The EPA admitted responsibility for its actions in much the same way Hilary admitted responsibility for Benghazi. Admitting responsibility is only one part of actually taking responsibility. Admitting responsibility means nothing without accountability. Who is being held accountable for this?

2) Yes, I used the adjective "crappy", but not to describe the subcontractors. They only did what the EPA directed them to do. If the EPA had no information on the mine, then WTF were they doing pissing around with it? Why? Because the EPA personnel directing the subcontractors were negligent. They admitted it. I accurately described THEM, not the subcontractors.

3) The "knights in shining armor" reference addresses what seems to me as an unreasonable infatuation you have for regulatory agencies.

And to ask, what would I have done? That question tells me you have no idea the cause of my discontent. Everyone else here seems to get it. This whole thread you've been saying I'm saying something I'm not saying. It's true that I would not lament the dismantling of the EPA. But that has nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread.

My sole discontent on this issue is that the EPA admits responsibility without accountability. When the EPA goes after companies that are as negligent as they were, they hold those companies accountable. Who is holding the EPA accountable? Apparently not you.

Here's what should happen. The EPA officials presiding over the mess should be fired. That's what happens in the real world of accountability. That's what "taking full responsibility" means. Also, the EPA should pay for whatever it takes to make it right out of the fines it has collected from other companies.

And timjoebillybob is exactly right. The EPA is not just a regulatory agency anymore. They operate far beyond their original charter.

 

[Alpo]

Infatuation...your term. I have respect for the people who come in after the problem is created and attempt to remediate. That is part of my engineering background and also a sense of empathy for what it is to be human. I feel bad for the folks in the Twin Towers on 9-11, but I have high regard for the firefighters and police who went in harms way to rescue those that they could.

I don't like the bureaucrats any more than you do, but I know how bad these mines are. I spent quite a bit of time in Leadville, Colorado (which is now a superfund site) and saw what the miners did. I have a good friend whose house is built on the tailings of some of those mines.

As to firing the guys in the field who were doing the work? Nope. Not unless something else shows up that indicates that they should have known that their actions would have created the problems that occurred. You don't have any facts yet. And retribution without facts is....well....you're so good with adjectives, you choose one.

As of today, the water quality is apparently at levels consistent with that before the plume which, as a Denver Post reporter noted, isn't all that good. There are 2 other mines that are leaking 530 gpm right now, he said. And the residents have always been aware that the mines were putting metals into the watershed. This isn't new.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Infatuation...your term. I have respect for the people who come in after the problem is created and attempt to remediate. That is part of my engineering background and also a sense of empathy for what it is to be human. I feel bad for the folks in the Twin Towers on 9-11, but I have high regard for the firefighters and police who went in harms way to rescue those that they could.

I don't like the bureaucrats any more than you do, but I know how bad these mines are. I spent quite a bit of time in Leadville, Colorado (which is now a superfund site) and saw what the miners did. I have a good friend whose house is built on the tailings of some of those mines.

As to firing the guys in the field who were doing the work? Nope. Not unless something else shows up that indicates that they should have known that their actions would have created the problems that occurred. You don't have any facts yet. And retribution without facts is....well....you're so good with adjectives, you choose one.

As a matter of principle, this is reasonable enough. The problem is that I cannot have sympathy over retribution directed toward people who hand out retribution to others with reckless abandon.

 

[jamil]

Infatuation...your term. I have respect for the people who come in after the problem is created and attempt to remediate. That is part of my engineering background and also a sense of empathy for what it is to be human. I feel bad for the folks in the Twin Towers on 9-11, but I have high regard for the firefighters and police who went in harms way to rescue those that they could.

I don't like the bureaucrats any more than you do, but I know how bad these mines are. I spent quite a bit of time in Leadville, Colorado (which is now a superfund site) and saw what the miners did. I have a good friend whose house is built on the tailings of some of those mines.

As to firing the guys in the field who were doing the work? Nope. Not unless something else shows up that indicates that they should have known that their actions would have created the problems that occurred. You don't have any facts yet. And retribution without facts is....well....you're so good with adjectives, you choose one.

I appreciate your experience. We don't disagree on the badness of the situation there. The EPA is a regulatory agency who fines companies for doing the very same thing that they themselves did. Please, hold them accountable. And for the sake of argument, let's call them firemen. We all appreciate the jobs police and firemen do. Wouldn't you hold negligent firemen or police accountable?

Yes. Fire the EPA guys in the field. They themselves admitted that they should have known better, that they should have taken precautions that they knew they should have taken. That's negligence. They hold negligent companies accountable.

 

[Alpo]

Firemen....You really are attempting to avoid the 21st Century, aren't you?

Who is the "They" that "admitted, etc., etc." ? Is it one guy? What was his role? Regional Chief or something? What were his orders to the crew, if you know? What did the crew tell him, if you know? Did they tell the Regional boss that it was a bad idea?

From what I learned from reading, they were on their way to another site that was considered critical. I don't know why they stopped at Gold King. Perhaps for a quick test of information they had on the blockade at the adit?

There is quite a bit you and I don't know at this point and I'm not going to fire some guy on your sayso, especially since your management techniques are outdated.

 

[oldpink]

Firemen....You really are attempting to avoid the 21st Century, aren't you?

Who is the "They" that "admitted, etc., etc." ? Is it one guy? What was his role? Regional Chief or something? What were his orders to the crew, if you know? What did the crew tell him, if you know? Did they tell the Regional boss that it was a bad idea?

From what I learned from reading, they were on their way to another site that was considered critical. I don't know why they stopped at Gold King. Perhaps for a quick test of information they had on the blockade at the adit?

There is quite a bit you and I don't know at this point and I'm not going to fire some guy on your sayso, especially since your management techniques are outdated.

That statement is the very epitome of irony, especially coming from the exact same guy who repeatedly spews his distaste for private industry, even regarding this specific disaster.
But, hey, private industry doesn't really make money; money belongs to the federal government, and we the serfs only get to keep what the feds in their infinite wisdom and benevolence permit.

 

[jamil]

Firemen....You really are attempting to avoid the 21st Century, aren't you?

Who is the "They" that "admitted, etc., etc." ? Is it one guy? What was his role? Regional Chief or something? What were his orders to the crew, if you know? What did the crew tell him, if you know? Did they tell the Regional boss that it was a bad idea?

From what I learned from reading, they were on their way to another site that was considered critical. I don't know why they stopped at Gold King. Perhaps for a quick test of information they had on the blockade at the adit?

There is quite a bit you and I don't know at this point and I'm not going to fire some guy on your sayso, especially since your management techniques are outdated.

1) you don't seem to read the links you complain about other people not reading.

2) you really hate jumping to conclusions about your knights in shining armor, but will leap to them when it involves a for-profit enterprise.