EPA Releases Tons Of Pollution Into Colorado River

[Alpo]

I used to drive to Leadville Colorado quite often. I had friends in the area and fishing in that area is superb (if you know where to go).

On the drive up, there is the Climax Mine. One of (I think) only 2 molybdenum mines in the USA and at one time supplied over 75% of the world's demand for moly.

The picture is fairly recent. It used to have a mountain on top of this area, but mining has taken the mountain down some 5,000 feet (my estimate). Note the color of the standing water. Note also the settlement ponds lower on the mountain. Note the river and lakes nearby. This is the Continental Divide. Everything flows downhill from here.

 

[jamil]

And this has what to do with the EPA's cavalier attitude,

 

[Alpo]

Please show me a statement made that demonstrates their cavalier attitude. Or are you just ad libbing again?

What this picture shows is that the COLOR effluent from these mines is similar. In fact, the color is not the problem. But when you look at the Las Animas fotos, you see color and the great majority of that is just dirt and non hazardous minerals. You don't see the arsenic. You don't see the lead. When the great Navajo Chief put his feet in the orange river and cried a tear and said he felt the river's sorrow, I'd suspect that the Chief was looking at a Greenbacked river, where he could ask the federal government for more money (on top of the Anadarko billions) so that the tribe could buy more cars and change their oil in the dirt next to their trailers. (Sorry, I've seen the reservation).

 

[oldpink]

Okay, so let's just close down molybdenum mining.
Gun enthusiasts couldn't possibly be affected by that, now can they?

 

[Alpo]

Actually, they do a GREAT job controlling their byproducts and waste. No reason to close it down. It merely serves as a reminder that a lot of this stuff goes on way above the timberline.

And no moly, no steel. So if you are pretty sure you can handle plastic cars and rifles, you're set.

 

[jamil]

Please show me a statement made that demonstrates their cavalier attitude. Or are you just ad libbing again?

What this picture shows is that the COLOR effluent from these mines is similar. In fact, the color is not the problem. But when you look at the Las Animas fotos, you see color and the great majority of that is just dirt and non hazardous minerals. You don't see the arsenic. You don't see the lead. When the great Navajo Chief put his feet in the orange river and cried a tear and said he felt the river's sorrow, I'd suspect that the Chief was looking at a Greenbacked river, where he could ask the federal government for more money (on top of the Anadarko billions) so that the tribe could buy more cars and change their oil in the dirt next to their trailers. (Sorry, I've seen the reservation).

dude. Open the link YOU posted and do a search on page for the word, "cavalier". They admitted to ****ing it up. It was the point of the allegory I posted earlier. You know, the one where I ended it with. "I read the article."

 

[Alpo]

A cavalier admission. Like this? (I betch Shaun ends up getting an a** reaming for that offhand remark).

 

[jamil]

A cavalier admission. Like this?

Okay, so now that we're in agreement that the EPA ****ed up, maybe we can get back to what most of us are saying. The EPA gives consequences when evil capitalists **** up. These guys basically admitted negligence. The ones responsible for the mess need to be fired. That's what it means to take responsibility for something. There are generally consequences that follow when you **** up.

 

[Alpo]

The guys who screwed up are the contractors who have a ton of experience in environmental cleanup (read up on em). The EPA had decent objectives here. There was a problem. I don't know how many times I have to say it: we are human, sh*t happens.

This is the 21st century. Don't you think we ought to get beyond the fingerpointing adolescent response that we've have for 150,000 years?

Admit your mistake. Fix it. That has always worked for me in business and I see no reason that it can't be learned by more than my employees.

 

[jamil]

The guys who screwed up are the contractors who have a ton of experience in environmental cleanup (read up on em). The EPA had decent objectives here. There was a problem. I don't know how many times I have to say it: we are human, sh*t happens.

This is the 21st century. Don't you think we ought to get beyond the fingerpointing adolescent response that we've have for 150,000 years?

Admit your mistake. Fix it. That has always worked for me in business and I see no reason that it can't be learned by more than my employees.

So the next time a BP deep sea rig springs a leak, we can all just say, '**** happens". I mean, don't you think we ought to get beyond the finger-pointing adolescent response we've had for 150,000 years?

The EPA admitted that it's their fault. They were cavalier about it. They knew they should do it this way instead of that way, but that way was more expedient.

I don't think "society" should have to absorb the consequences of ****ups, whether they're BP or the EPA.

 

[Alpo]

They weren't "cavalier" about it. Cavalier also means "lack of proper concern". In this context, an underestimate of the severity of the problem.

So, you want to crucify the contractors? Want to hammer the nails in yourself? Frankly, I don't rate this one as a Category 5 problem. Maybe just scourge them and tie them to the cross for the day? Take pics and put em on Twitter?

I really am surprised you don't see the difference between sludge in the Animas River and the New Horizons environmental disaster. At least you should have some feel for the difference in dollars.

I'm done with this thread. Formally. Permanently. Either you found some value in or discussion. Or not.

 

[MisterChester]

So the next time a BP deep sea rig springs a leak, we can all just say, '**** happens". I mean, don't you think we ought to get beyond the finger-pointing adolescent response we've had for 150,000 years?

The EPA admitted that it's their fault. They were cavalier about it. They knew they should do it this way instead of that way, but that way was more expedient.

I don't think "society" should have to absorb the consequences of ****ups, whether they're BP or the EPA.

Absolutely.. In a situation where nobody is blameless then all have a duty to right their wrongs. The people that are directly affected by it (loss of income resulting from accident, property damage, etc.) are entitled to compensation. The EPA and the owners better get together and open their wallets/send cleaning crews.

 

[cobber]

Buddy, capitalists are the ones who CREATED this problem. You want to blame government. You are wrong.

Having lived and breathed in Beijing for two years, I'll take capitalists over the alternative in their approach to pollution control.

With respect to the late USSR, Murray Feshbach did lots of research on pollution and Soviet demographics. It wasn't pretty.
Pollution In The Name Of Progress - tribunedigital-chicagotribune

Pretty sure capitalism has nothing to do with it...


In South Korea, the head of the EPA might have committed suicide. In North Korea, the government might have imposed suicide on a government minister responsible for such a debacle. In the US? Nada. After a year resign and go off to a university chancellorship somewhere.

 

[MisterChester]

Pollution isn't a capitalism/communist specific problem. Whichever society that holds environmental protection in high regard will do all they can do to reduce pollution. China is communist country and they could give a rat's ass about pollution. India isn't communist but they don't care either. Go to Northern Europe, they believe they need to keep the environment clean and their economies are mixed. Here in the U.S. we have the EPA to help protect the environment, and businesses have to follow the law in regards to pollution. Some companies spend millions of dollars just to reduce their footprint, while others have managers who would sell their grandmas if it meant they didn't have to follow the law. To that I say if it costs too much to control your own waste then you have a garbage business model. If every company did their due diligence with their waste then we probably wouldn't need the EPA anymore. Like anything in business it all comes down to ethics.

 

[IndyDave1776]

The guys who screwed up are the contractors who have a ton of experience in environmental cleanup (read up on em). The EPA had decent objectives here. There was a problem. I don't know how many times I have to say it: we are human, sh*t happens.

This is the 21st century. Don't you think we ought to get beyond the fingerpointing adolescent response that we've have for 150,000 years?

Admit your mistake. Fix it. That has always worked for me in business and I see no reason that it can't be learned by more than my employees.

This is just the problem. When sh*t happens to a government agency, they shrug, say 'oops' and that's the end of it. When sh*t happens to anyone else, a bunch of government MFSBs make life a living hell and/or financially ruing them. Can you understand how this leads to the conclusion that the problem with most agents of government is the fact that they exist?

 

[80quercus]

EPA=Good for Patriotic americans!

So I understand this mine dates back to 1908 and there are 1000's of them out west that have been long abandoned. EPA has a contractor who messes up on one and everyone wants to vilify them and some presidential candidates even want to eliminate them despite the fact that they have a proven track record of reducing toxic exposures to patriotic americans__like you and me :-) Then who the hell do you think is going to clean up these sites that these cheapskate states have failed to do for over a century? Obviously the mine companies are long gone. As far as I'm concerned, EPA can vacate these godforsaken cheapstates and come to Indiana and continue to clean up the backlog of environmental messes made by a later but similar industrial group of companies that took advantage of the fact that they could contaminate a site and skip town, leaving the government holding the bag in the form of Superfund.

 

[pudly]

I'm waiting to hear that the DOJ and/or FBI are investigating the EPA as they do any private organization with the intent to identify those responsible and criminally prosecute them. The EPA shouldn't be immune to the same liability that anyone else faces for similar mistakes. However, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[oldpink]

It's truly something to behold that the EPA gets to pass regulations by fiat, impose punitive fines, engage in cronyism, and otherwise run roughshod over the American people, but when that same EPA causes a major environmental disaster, up pop those eager to jump to the EPA's defense.
Every time I hear a federal government cabinet level person "take responsibility" for a a disaster of one sort, I think back to Janet Reno claiming responsibility for Waco.
The consequences that Janet Reno suffered for Waco?
Why, she continued to serve out the rest of her term as the second longest serving Attorney General in U.S. history?

 

[jamil]

They weren't "cavalier" about it. Cavalier also means "lack of proper concern". In this context, an underestimate of the severity of the problem.

So, you want to crucify the contractors? Want to hammer the nails in yourself? Frankly, I don't rate this one as a Category 5 problem. Maybe just scourge them and tie them to the cross for the day? Take pics and put em on Twitter?

I really am surprised you don't see the difference between sludge in the Animas River and the New Horizons environmental disaster. At least you should have some feel for the difference in dollars.

I'm done with this thread. Formally. Permanently. Either you found some value in or discussion. Or not.

Well, there you go again. First you again say I'm saying more than I'm saying. Crucifixion? Never said it. Then you deflect with all kinds of other crap that has nothing to do with my point.

When employees in the real world **** up, they get fired. If I ****ed up anything to the extent that these people did, I know damn well I'd be fired for that. Fire the ones who knew they should have taken more precautions and didn't. This includes people in the EPA. They've admitted as much.

 

[jamil]

It's truly something to behold that the EPA gets to pass regulations by fiat, impose punitive fines, engage in cronyism, and otherwise run roughshod over the American people, but when that same EPA causes a major environmental disaster, up pop those eager to jump to the EPA's defense.
Every time I hear a federal government cabinet level person "take responsibility" for a a disaster of one sort, I think back to Janet Reno claiming responsibility for Waco.
The consequences that Janet Reno suffered for Waco?
Why, she continued to serve out the rest of her term as the second longest serving Attorney General in U.S. history?

yeah, don't forget the HBIC at the state department "taking full responsibility" for Benghazi. Now she'll be rewarded with the presidency, when she should be rewarded with jail time.