EPA Releases Tons Of Pollution Into Colorado River

[Alpo]

That makes no sense.

I'm out of here. Clearly you guys see the world through your ideology which only lightly skips across reality.

 

[Woobie]

What makes no sense?

 

[oldpink]

That makes no sense.

I'm out of here. Clearly you guys see the world through your ideology which only lightly skips across reality.

We see the world through our ideology?
Wow
Pot, meet kettle.
Kettle, meet pot.

 

[Alpo]

Yah. Me and Dave Gilmour. You have his pic, but you missed the rest.

 

[Woobie]

Ah. I see. We are evaluating avatars not facts or lines of reasoning. Good to know this has been a productive discussion.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Look at the bright side.

This event can finally give conservatives the opportunity to be outraged at pollution and cry for justice against the perpetrators.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

And since when did you change your mind about the reliability of the media?

Did I?

 

[oldpink]

Yah. Me and Dave Gilmour. You have his pic, but you missed the rest.

Meanwhile, even as you go on about Dave Gilmour, I'll just throw out one word: Chernobyl

 

[Woobie]

Meanwhile, even as you go on about Dave Gilmour, I'll just throw out one word: Chernobyl

Today on INGO I learned that Chernobyl was caused by Free Market Capitalism.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Meanwhile, even as you go on about Dave Gilmour, I'll just throw out one word: Chernobyl

I thought I had all his albums, but I don't have that one.

 

[MisterChester]

Dumb government, dumb owners. /thread

 

[pudly]

Just for comparison purposes. One year ago:

Freedom Industries ... accidentally discharged 10,000 gallons of toxic material into West Virginia’s Elk River last year. In that case, the EPA and the FBI came down on Freedom Industries like a hammer. The company and several of its employees were criminally prosecuted. The company was forced into bankruptcy, and several of its employees went to jail.
Nor did Gina McCarthy confine herself to calling the Elk River spill a “tragic and very unfortunate incident.” She denounced Freedom Industries and unleashed a criminal investigation

So, 300x as much toxic crap is released and the EPA is "taking responsibility". Which means that nothing will happen to anyone involved. Any other group has to exercise care and has strong incentive to do everything possible to prevent accidents. Environmental protection groups are strangely silent and understanding of this incident. The bottom line is that of all organizations, government is the least responsive and accountable for such failures.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Latest headlines are trying to take the heat of the EPA and put the focus on the 100+ year old mines...

Toxic mines taint the West's waterways

Toxic mines taint the West's waterways


The propaganda machine in the US today would make Goebbles proud.

 

[Alpo]

Just for comparison purposes. One year ago:


So, 300x as much toxic crap is released and the EPA is "taking responsibility". Which means that nothing will happen to anyone involved. Any other group has to exercise care and has strong incentive to do everything possible to prevent accidents. Environmental protection groups are strangely silent and understanding of this incident. The bottom line is that of all organizations, government is the least responsive and accountable for such failures.

Freedom had a series of problems if I remember correctly. Tax fraud, drugs, something else. I never did hear if the employees were sentenced or fined.

But, to equate the Las Animas disaster with 300 times as much "toxic crap" is probably a bit hyperbolic. 4-Methylcyclohexanemethanol in concentrated form vs acids, arsenic and heavy metals in 3 million gallons of water do not compare, methinks. A chemist would know better.

Why are the environmental groups "strangely silent"? Because everyone who lives out there is familiar with the problems caused by mining in those mountains.

 

[jamil]

A man goes to the doctor for a checkup, the doctor says, I'm sorry. You have lung cancer, kidney disease, and diabetes. I've told you for years your lifestyle would kill you. Good news is, we can fix it most of it. We can remove the tumor from your lungs, replace the faulty kidney, and get your diabetes under control.

The man goes into surgery and when he wakes up, he asks the doctor how it went. The doctor said, well, not so good. I have to admit we went in with a 'cavalier attitude'. We kinda botched things. We operated on the wrong lung, forgot to take the proper precautions with the kidney, so it's gone to hell, and we accidentally gave you some meds that we knew would be dangerous for you. So you probably have just a few days left to live. But it's all your fault because of your lifestyle.

THAT's Alpo's argument.

I read the article.

 

[Alpo]

Not exactly. Old man is sitting in Doc's office with his wife of 55 years. Doc says "I need a blood sample, stool sample and urine sample".

Old woman says: "Just give him your underwear."

I don't know how many of you that are ragging on the EPA here have: 1) ever been in a gold mine in the Rockies, 2) ever worked construction or 3) ever had things unravel on you in a serious way when you thought you had accounted for all the important variables. By the nature of the responses, you either have not, or you just hate the government.

Stuff happens. Mines collapse, tectonic forces shift things around, rocks crack. Hydraulic fracking is a pretty safe operation most of the time, but not always and in the same way it's mostly a suprise when things go wrong because the experienced crews attempt to account for the dynamics in the process. No one wants to push solvents into someone's water supply and have flames coming out of their kitchen tap.

There are a number of things I don't care for in government. But, I'm 65 and a realist. It is the way it is and for me it isn't going to change very much in the remainder of my lifetime. You guys might be younger, but gathering here crabbing about it with like-minded co-conspirators is pretty much useless.

GP cites an article. You guys come on and b*tch about how the world is going to hell in a handbasket. Then what? NOTHING.

 

[oldpink]

EPA = angels totally blameless for their actions no matter what
Industry = demons

 

[jblomenberg16]

Not exactly. Old man is sitting in Doc's office with his wife of 55 years. Doc says "I need a blood sample, stool sample and urine sample".

Old woman says: "Just give him your underwear."

I don't know how many of you that are ragging on the EPA here have: 1) ever been in a gold mine in the Rockies, 2) ever worked construction or 3) ever had things unravel on you in a serious way when you thought you had accounted for all the important variables. By the nature of the responses, you either have not, or you just hate the government.

Stuff happens. Mines collapse, tectonic forces shift things around, rocks crack. Hydraulic fracking is a pretty safe operation most of the time, but not always and in the same way it's mostly a suprise when things go wrong because the experienced crews attempt to account for the dynamics in the process. No one wants to push solvents into someone's water supply and have flames coming out of their kitchen tap.

There are a number of things I don't care for in government. But, I'm 65 and a realist. It is the way it is and for me it isn't going to change very much in the remainder of my lifetime. You guys might be younger, but gathering here crabbing about it with like-minded co-conspirators is pretty much useless.

GP cites an article. You guys come on and b*tch about how the world is going to hell in a handbasket. Then what? NOTHING.

Been in a lot of mines around the world and have my MSHA Certification. Lots of stuff can and will happen that are not going to end well. I think what has so many upset is how when a private company goofs up, the EPA, MSHA, and several other alphabet agencies are all over them threatening fines, lawsuits and prosecution. When the EPA is responsible, the response is largely "we're handling it" and blaming the 100 year old mine in the first place.

 

[Woobie]

I suppose you're right, Alpo. We should all just shut up and take the pounding like good citizens. We should ignore the double standard and just assume the EPA has only pure motives and does only good things, while preserving individual liberty and for not much money.

 

[Alpo]

EPA = angels totally blameless for their actions no matter what
Industry = demons

I don't think the EPA is blameless. And they overreach in many many areas. As to this incident, particularly, S*** happens. It probably won't be the last sludge dam breech in the high country. I used to live about 10 miles from the government's plutonium trigger plant. And the Rocky Mountain Arsenal had all kinds of nasty biologic and chemical WMD's that polluted their site (ground and groundwater) outside of Denver. So, no, I don't think I hold the government blameless in a variety of circumstances.

I do think there are enough bad examples in industry that they need oversight. The arguments here are to deflect away from that role by examining government failures. It doesn't solve the basic problem which is that industry needs to be as green as it can. Shipping the problem overseas to put the lives of the population and employees in jeopardy "over there" isn't the answer. Industry self-regulation has worked in some/many circumstances. Not in all.

So, some balance needs to be set between the idea that capitalists, acting in their own interests, will do the right thing for the environment and the communities in which these businesses operate. A license to do business not a lifetime exemption to seek a profit at the expense of killing your neighbors.