Dry Fire Warning

[Trapper Jim]

TJ, the author AGREED with your objection to manipulating the slide with one's finger on the trigger. It seems that this "reset magazine" is supposed to address that by reseting the trigger so that all one has to do is just press the trigger 'shot' after'shot'--like dryfire with a double action revolver. I don't see what the problem is.

My issue is not with the author. TM is as down to earth as it gets. My issue is the realization last Saturday and now this article that Finger Violation tactics have been going on with Dry Fire RTR drills. Again, just my opinion, this is a terrible exercise with nothing to learn but a happenening waiting for an accident. Not sure who started or promoted this drill but if one follows this pied piper exercise then hopefully this new gadget will help. God forbid they just take some real training and learn how to shoot first.

 

[VERT]

Maybe I'm confused about, "keep the trigger pulled when working the slide to reset the trigger and suedo charge the chamber".

Is this in essence simulating the action of the slide recoiling - basically doing everything the same, but in slow motion?


Are the other two rules being followed? Then I see no problem.

Correct. Exactly the same thing happens during live fire, now it is just happening in slow motion. I have no idea what TJ witnessed but it could have been a proper teaching technique. Hard to learn how your individual gun resets or to teach maintaining contact with the trigger if you don't actually maintain contact with the trigger. Proper trigger control is one of the most fundamental requirements for marksmanship. Hitting a target is easy just line up the sights and press the trigger without disturbing that sight alignment. Of course there is a lot that goes on to make that happen.

I think Rob Leathem is self proclaimed trigger slapper. Maybe an off topic comment, maybe not.

 

[Coach]

Is the gun pointed at the target while racking the slide? If so what rule is being broken?

 

[OneBadV8]

almost posted the video in here, but this came up on my youtube feed today.

Ways to Train/Practice without ammo (Dry Fire) (ingunowners.com)

It's interesting because the guy in the video share's Trapper Jim's view on not holding the trigger down. Good thoughts and tips on other things to consider when dry-firing

 

[VERT]

Is the gun pointed at the target while racking the slide? If so what rule is being broken?

I think the concern would be the mental conditioning of keeping your finger on the trigger while manipulating a pistol. Same argument applies to pointing Blue Guns at people. My opinion are these types of exercises are contextual.

 

[Coach]

I think the concern would be the mental conditioning of keeping your finger on the trigger while manipulating a pistol. Same argument applies to pointing Blue Guns at people. My opinion are these types of exercises are contextual.

If the pistol is pointing at the target/ threat the rules allow the finger on the trigger. If this concern is about safety which is not present if the rules are violated then we must know where the muzzle is pointed to damn this practice to the realm of unsafe.

USPSA rules allow for the finger on the trigger while clearing a malfunction for example as long as the muzzle stays on a target. If I am racking a slide while pointing the gun at the target or threat what is the added danger? I am either safely pointing the gun or I am not.

 

[cedartop]

I continue to be amazed.

 

[VERT]

I continue to be amazed.

My guess is Coach, You and I would be in agreement if we were sitting around the fire enjoying a beverage.

 

[worddoer]

***Disclaimer: I am not a trainer and have only helped close friends & family who are new shooters.

I have used dry fire to great effect with new shooters. However, I don't use the particular technique listed in the OP.

I take a 2 stage approach...

Stage 1: The normal dry fire approach. Work on grip, stance, trigger pull, ect while watching for flinching. Each trigger pull is separate and cycling the slide is done with the finger off the trigger.

Stage 2: Once we have stage 1 decent...then using a 2nd person (usually is me) I will have the new shooter dry fire. As soon as I hear the striker "click" or see the hammer drop, I cycle the slide hard and fast while the new shooter is still maintaining their grip, stance and continues pointing in the safe direction. This gives the new shooter (to some extent) the ability to experience and work on how they handle recoil. I don't work on trigger reset with new shooters.

Although the above method is certainly not a full/perfect substitute for live fire, I have found using the 2 step approach above with new shooters before they fire any live rounds makes the range session more successful. The new shooter seems to start off with a far better grasp of what they need to do and what they are trying to accomplish. It makes it a far more pleasant experience for them and they often are excited to learn more. At that point, I refer them to a couple of trainers I recommend.

 

[Trapper Jim]

almost posted the video in here, but this came up on my youtube feed today.

Ways to Train/Practice without ammo (Dry Fire) (ingunowners.com)

It's interesting because the guy in the video share's Trapper Jim's view on not holding the trigger down. Good thoughts and tips on other things to consider when dry-firing

good vid. This dude seems committed to the hard work it takes. I did find a little humor however when at index 3.51 he falls into the ammo acrobat habit and stops himself before he sweeps his hand.

 

[Trapper Jim]

If the pistol is pointing at the target/ threat the rules allow the finger on the trigger. If this concern is about safety which is not present if the rules are violated then we must know where the muzzle is pointed to damn this practice to the realm of unsafe.

USPSA rules allow for the finger on the trigger while clearing a malfunction for example as long as the muzzle stays on a target. If I am racking a slide while pointing the gun at the target or threat what is the added danger? I am either safely pointing the gun or I am not.

Glad to see you back in the mix Coach..

MY OP had nothing to do with organized shooting sports. Not sure how it got sidetracked. USPSA matches have nothing to do with an irresponsible trainer encouraging the noob to manipulate (in this case dry fire) a firearm slide with their finger on the trigger before achieving a better skill set which could ultimately lead to an associated conditioned result of an accidental discharge for the CGO. There are many things in the Practical Shooting Sports that I do not agree with being practical at all for street defense or training for that matter. That is another topic. However, Since we are bringing up USPSA Rule 10.5.8 which reads 10.5.8 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard while clearing a malfunction where the competitor clearly moves the handgun away from aiming at targets. Aiming...really?

During a COF at a USPSA match define aiming. Is it at the AZone, the third popper, or any thing on the berm? Does it also include the gun at a 45 degree angle up and over the berm? How can the RO determine the shooter is keeping a well aimed front sight when he is often using 3 hands to mag release dump, identify the problem, grab his dot or cup the rear sight to rack slide, or focus on his racker, insert new mag, and rack the gun and then try to regroup where in the hell he is at? Let's face it, the competitor is often up to his elbow in TG and the only time it gets noticed is when there is an AD. I have seen muzzle dances with fingers with pistols and PCC's. Not so much in revolvers. In my opinion, and NO ONE on here has to agree with me (won't hurt my feelings), The finger call in USPSA and IDPA is the most subjective, inconsistent called, rule we have. To enforce this rule fairly for everyone USPSA would have to adapt to highspeed digital photography with a close up on the finger and wait for the judges to rate. Please enlighten me if this has been addressed this year as I have not been active in matches because of COVID.

Thank you and again, glad to hear from you.

 

[Pfcmaurx]

Just last Saturday I witnessed a trainer with her student showing a dry fire exercise. Ironically, in todays Shooting Wire (Reprint from The Tactical Wire) Shooting Wire Feature article promoting "Dry Fire Reset Magazines" I see reference made to this as well. Dry fire practice if done wrong can be deadly. This instructor was showing the student how to keep the trigger pulled when working the slide to reset the trigger and suedo charge the chamber.. As a side note this instructor was riding the slide home as well, but that is a different mistake. Unless I am not seeing something here, this breaks safe gun handling rules in a huge way. WHENEVER you are manipulating your firearm, your finger goes on the side of the frame. Dry or Live Fire. The finger is the most abused rule of casual gun handlers (and some Master Class shooters) to begin with... there is absolutley no need to promote keeping your finger on the switch unless you are pulling the trigger. Monkey see is what monkey does. This ranks right up there with the Blue Gun Associated Result. The association between improperly handling a prop equates to an unloaded gun for some. I have witnessed it. The unloaded gun kills rule violators most every day. The association between keeping the finger on the trigger while manipulating for a cheesy dryfire exercise can equate to the conditioning of the casual gun owner to do it with what he/she THINKS is a unloaded gun.

Dry Fire done right is a valuable exercise. Conditioning bad habits will get you kilt.

It is very common to teach dry fire drills and have them practice trigger reset by holding the trigger back while manipulating the slide to reset the trigger. This method was taught to me both in the military and police department as well as in numerous classes by great instructors. There is a safe way to practice this, and other dry fire drills and getting a good program to teach the do’s and don’t s is important.

 

[Trapper Jim]

It is very common to teach dry fire drills and have them practice trigger reset by holding the trigger back while manipulating the slide to reset the trigger. This method was taught to me both in the military and police department as well as in numerous classes by great instructors. There is a safe way to practice this, and other dry fire drills and getting a good program to teach the do’s and don’t s is important.

Thank you for your comments in this thread and also thank you for your service. You are correct when you say it is a very common practice to teach RTR this way in dry fire techniques. And also correct that many great instructors do this. In my opinion as I have said many times, that don't make it right. We use to do a lot of things in the 70's that we have corrected through a better understanding and education of the subject.

Follow me just a little here... The military and police firearm instructors have to instruct a broad many of people in a limited time and resource. There is a difference between instruction and training. Back in the day with my work at Stout Field and Atterbury I noticed the curriculum was only truly absorbed by less than 50% and almost 90% of the company was not going to follow through with the hard work, commitment, time and money needed to perfect the craft of shooting. Same with the many NRA courses that students slept though, ate the pizza, and got the certificate. This is the breakdown in training today. BTW, Finland knew this at one time.

As a student of Human Behavior and of shooting, I have been sounding the alarm for many years on how we can do better on micro viewing the actual TRAINING that takes place today. Trainers handling guns unsafely during class, or selling fear based training modules, or showing off to the class on "look what I can do". I have brought the light Blue Gun mistakes that many do not even understand. I have pointed out videos and print ads that encouraged unsafe gun handling. I point out skill driven accessories that are less to be desired for some applications. And yes, I point out things that I and other trainers have done maybe not in the best foot forward. RTR is an advanced drill in my opinion and I have what I think is a better way to actually teach it with no side affects. As a matter of fact, dissecting the entire training modules that I see, there are many things that can be improved in getting the student to forever learn and practice shooting skills.

Yes, I know that many can do and have done this dry fire drill and never have or had a problem. But that does not make it a perfected application. Just my opinion and thank you for listening.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Too wordy to go into here but I start with a double action revolver to thoroughly explain and define how reset works then apply it to whatever gun they got.

 

[Double T]

I 3d printed a little connector block for my glock that allows me to keep pulling the trigger, and the sear doesn't drop. It has greatly improved my dryfire.

 

[Double T]

If anyone else wants one, message me and I'll work out printing one and shipping it to you.