Carry 9 vs. PM / MK 9 vs......

[younggun21]

I haven't even payed for / picked up my first gun yet (I'm trying to get an evening free Kludge I promise) And I am looking for a second (On my budget I have to plan and start saving now for next winter)

For summer, fall and spring I am usually in jeans a t-shirt and flip flops. I am a small guy, 5'8" 140lbs and don't wear baggy clothes so a small gun that would normally be a BUG will be my main carry gun (once my permit gets here, hopefully only a couple more weeks, and I get off campus) However in the winter (and once I adapt my wardrobe/get more comfortable carrying) I am hoping for something a little bigger. Preferably a 9mm.

Recently I began researching the Para-Ordinance "Carry 9" A single stack 9mm 1911 style. I have also looked into the Kahr MK9 and PM9 which tend to get mixed reviews and seem over priced. I have also looked at the Kimber Ultra Carry II and PA Hogs and Carry Gap all three of which are chambered in .45 but are comparable in size to the Carry 9.

The biggest concern I have about the 1911 style pistols is the length of the grip. I have small hands so I don't need much. On my body frame concealing something with a longer grip could be tricky.

I am looking for any and all advice regarding any of the above mentioned guns. I am not really interested in Glocks, I do like their firearms, however I find myself to be more attracted to predominantly metal guns and more specifically 1911's.

Thanks for hanging in there and reading all of this!

-K

 

[bwframe]

You should change your wardrobe to work with your carry gun, not the opposite. If you need your weapon, you really need your weapon, not the only peashooter that would fit in your pocket.

 

[phylodog]

I owned a Kahr PM9 and carried it daily for almost three years in everything from jeans and sweatshirts to shorts and t shirts. Never had a problem with it and it carried very well in a F.I.S.T. thin kydex IWB holster. I carried it in the front of my pants just right of my zipper and never worried about anyone seeing it.

Kahr has had some issues with some of their pistols but they have good customer service. My first Kahr was a lemon (P9) but they were very helpful in getting it resolved. My PM9 was fantastic out of the box. They're pricey but worth it in my opinion.

 

[Fenway]

Are these the guns you aren't supposed to "rack" but use the slide release?

 

[phylodog]

I never used the slide stop to release the slide on mine and never had a problem

 

[younggun21]

You should change your wardrobe to work with your carry gun, not the opposite. If you need your weapon, you really need your weapon, not the only peashooter that would fit in your pocket.

I agree however I don't have the budget to go out and buy a whole new wardrobe. I am going to make it an on-going process. I also believe that a pea shooter is better than nothing. With all the different gun makes and models I am a firm believer that every person can find a gun that "fits" them. If I had my choice it'd be an AR + a platoon of marines and air support, but I have to be logical about my situation. I plan on something bigger than a pea shooter, but am taking baby steps. If it's not comfortable and easy to conceal I wont carry it and be no better off than before.

-K

 

[melensdad]

OK just my take on things and feel free to disagree. I have both a Carry 9 and a Warthog. I looked at and did not buy the Kahr pistols. The little Kahr PM9 is wonderfully light and small and would be easier to conceal. But it comes with a trigger that I just didn't like. I'm not a fan of long triggers, DAO triggers, or other gimmicks.

I've gotten to the point in my life (age 47) where I've sold off my "wonder" pistols, you know the type, they have the newest bestest wonderfullest features like Double Action Only triggers, or worse yet DA/SA triggers that you can never get used to.

I shot a lot of targets with 1911 style pistols, I found one thing about them. The 1911 is the easiest pistol to shoot. In fact it has the highest first shot hit potential of any pistol every made. Think about that. If you are in a gun fight how important is it to you that your first shot hits the target?

I also like the controls of the 1911 pistols. The dual safety system is very simple, very positive. It is not a good pocket gun, but it is a great holster gun.

As for the Carry 9 and the LDA trigger. Its the second best trigger on a gun you can get. The best is the original 1911 SA trigger. The LDA trigger is not a traditional long, heavy DAO trigger. It is very light, pretty smooth, and simply draws back the hammer so you are only fighting the hammer weight. Its a nice system for a carry gun, especially for a new shooter. Its not as easy to shoot as the SA trigger on a 1911 but it is a nice trigger.

For carry, you will find I often have a Warthog. I also like the Detonics Combat Masters a lot, but they are out of your price range. I have them in several calibers and more configurations; exceptionally well made compact 1911 pistols.

 

[Fenway]

I think it is very important to hit the target The way I have thought about it is if I ever find myself in a handgun fight I think the best chances are that it will be at a close range and hitting a target will never be easy (especially a moving thinking target) but I'm not going to be trying to get really tight groups. I'm going to be trying to kill someone. I have a Glock and I like it. I have shot a 1911 and thought it was great. But when the SHTF for me I would rather have a slightly longer pull then a safety I have to disengage during an adrenaline dump situation.

That's just me.

Think about that. If you are in a gun fight how important is it to you that your first shot hits the target?

 

[melensdad]

I think it is very important to hit the target The way I have thought about it is if I ever find myself in a handgun fight I think the best chances are that it will be at a close range and hitting a target will never be easy (especially a moving thinking target) but I'm not going to be trying to get really tight groups. I'm going to be trying to kill someone. I have a Glock and I like it. I have shot a 1911 and thought it was great. But when the SHTF for me I would rather have a slightly longer pull then a safety I have to disengage during an adrenaline dump situation.

That's just me.

Interesting that you would take a gun that has a lower first shot hit potential over a gun that has the highest first shot hit potential after you admit that "it is very important to hit the target."

I do think that you make a good point about the safety, but obviously you do not understand the correct operation of the 1911, you disengage the safety as you draw so you are never fumbling with the safety when you are actually engaging the target. The safety is disengaged as the gun is coming up from your holster. Take a look at the target shooters and you will notice they typically start with a cocked and locked 1911, clicking off the safety doesn't seem to slow them down and they sure hit their targets!

I won't knock the Glock pistols. They are pretty reliable and very durable. I understand why many love them, despite the fact that I find the triggers to be horrid (but again that is my opinion). But Glocks are not the subject of this thread. Also given the original poster is concerned about hand size, a Glock is probably not going to be comfortable for anyone with smallish hands. The original poster asked about Kahr, Warthogs, Carry 9s, Kimber Ultras; I simply gave my experience with the pistols he requested.

 

[bwframe]

I agree however I don't have the budget to go out and buy a whole new wardrobe. I am going to make it an on-going process. I also believe that a pea shooter is better than nothing. With all the different gun makes and models I am a firm believer that every person can find a gun that "fits" them. If I had my choice it'd be an AR + a platoon of marines and air support, but I have to be logical about my situation. I plan on something bigger than a pea shooter, but am taking baby steps. If it's not comfortable and easy to conceal I wont carry it and be no better off than before.

-K

Sounds like your head's in the right place. I'd just hate for you to fall too far into the "tiny gun is better than no gun, so it will work" mentality.

Something that isn't discussed a lot is that smaller guns are much harder to master, especially if you haven't mastered the larger versions.
I would consider myself an experienced 1911 shooter. I bought a 3" Officers Model and got a real surprise. I could hit the side of the barn, but just barely. You could well be better than me, but I'd strongly advise against a 3" 1911 as your first carry gun.

Have you given any thought to a revolver? I know they aren't tacticool, but a lot can said for a 3 or 4" .38 or .357.

 

[melensdad]

. . . smaller guns are much harder to master. . . I bought a 3" Officers Model and got a real surprise. I could hit the side of the barn, but just barely. . .
Have you given any thought to a revolver?

Good points all.

I'm an auto fan, and most of my guns are compact autos. But I didn't start out with those, I worked my way down in size. Either a Ruger SP101 or Smith J-Frame revolver would be great choices.

 

[Fenway]

When it comes down to a fighting situation at the distances in which most handgun encounters occur... I don't think a 1911 style pistol would give your average ccw/LTC holder an advantage. I think those who don't train much might do better in a fight with a pistol that had one less thing to worry about. (ex. a safety). For those who feel most comfortable carrying 1911 style pistol I think you should go with that. What ever works!

I carry a gun that I think gives me the best chance to win a fight. I think the first shot hit potential has probably 99% to do with me and maybe 1% the trigger or style of pistol in a fighting situation. I didn't choose my carry/fighting pistol based on how tight my groups are on paper targets at the range (although I shoot really tight groups with it).

You gave your experiences on the pistols in question (which were very helpful) and I decided to weigh in on this thread when you started talking about triggers and selling your wonder pistols.

Good discussion so far

Interesting that you would take a gun that has a lower first shot hit potential over a gun that has the highest first shot hit potential after you admit that "it is very important to hit the target."

 

[melensdad]

I think the first shot hit potential has probably 99% to do with me and maybe 1% the trigger or style of pistol in a fighting situation.

FBI data shows that a 'typical' gunfight lasts 3 shots and even fewer seconds. That is the total number of bullets fired in the average confrontation. What is it about revolver shooters that cause them to have a total hit % that is higher than shooters who carry high capacity pistols?

 

[465guy]

More details please. What kind of percentages are we talking about here and can you cite your source for these statistics?

What is it about revolver shooters that cause them to have a total hit % that is higher than shooters who carry high capacity pistols?

 

[melensdad]

More details please. What kind of percentages are we talking about here and can you cite your source for these statistics?

FBI shooting statistics, sorry I don't have the files handy. But they compiled data of police involved shootings and found that police officers equipped with high capacity pistols tended to miss their targets a lot, while police equipped with revolvers tended to hit their targets at a far higher percentage. It was theorized, if I recall the report correctly, that revolver shooters knew they "only had 6 shots" and had to make them count. I don't believe they actually had an objective conclusion to the matter, just the subjective one. Do a web search and it may be on the web.

 

[younggun21]

I have looked at revolvers. J frames specifically and really liked them especially the ladysmith which fit in my hand like it was custom made. However my first carry gun is going to be soething in range from .22mag - .32 - .380 so jumping to a .38 isn't a big one. I was looking more at 9mm and maybe if i decide a .45.

Eventually I hope to own guns in all these calibers but my first two are what i am concerned with now. I NEED a small BUG style gun that's the facts of it right now and trying to convince me otherwise is useless. However I know i want something bigger eventually so I am trying to weigh my options. I have already had discussions about revolvers on the S&W thread so I thought I'd try and get some info on 1911 here.

-K

 

[melensdad]

If you want a small, fairly inexpensive, easy to carry little gun then take a look at the AMT DAO BACK UP. They are available on the used market, have long hard to pull triggers, but are easy to pocket and easy to carry. They are most commonly found in .380.

Here is my AMT and my Carry 9

 

[Lars]

My personal opinion, since it sounds like you're not 100% sure you know what you want, is to go to the range, rent between 1 and 5 pistols. Put a box of ammo through each. And see what fits your hand. Find out what shoots well. Then narrow the list down to two or three pistols that you've fired, held, loaded, and examined. Research what kinds of failures the two or three pistols you've narrowed your decisions down to have had.....

To save your self some money, and give yourself the chance to shoot a lot of different guns. You also might consider asking INGO members in your area who have posted that they happen to have a firearm you're interested in shooting if they would perhaps meet you at a range and let you put a box of ammo through it. I'd happily let someone put rounds through my S&W 22a, or the HK USP Tactical (once it get here) All ya gotta do is ask Well, and maybe pay the range fee....

For instance, S&W M&P pistols are great shooters, but there have been more than a fair share of broken strikers. They are a fairly new pistol. If the choice was between a Glock 17, and a S&W M&P 9mm (roughly the same pistol on paper) If you shoot both similarly, and the Glock has a better overall track record. I'd buy the Glock.

On paper it's easy to get caught up in the X is > Y because Z
On the range, with your hand, shooting X Y and Z all go out the window.

 

[red0801]

What did you think about the sights on the Kahr? I've looked a couple & the rear triangle seems intuitive @ the counter, but I'm leary I'll lose it when it matters.

Ryan

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Holy necropost, Batman...
1) Where the heck is Wakarusa?
2) I've had many Kahr's over the years - and never had a problem.