Ban On Women In Combat Being Lifted

[AK471025]

I dont think they ever should have not been able to, if they want everything to be completely fair they should be able to fight in combat as well

 

[Booya]

Is she one of the 2 women that went thru some particular Marine training and talked about how hard it was on her body physically?

She was a combat engineer that served with a combat unit and she's very clear about why it was a bad idea, one of the biggest reasons, what it did to her body.

My point is that a female that max's the female test or comes close will exceed the male test standard.

As for the strength component, most of the men I know could not accomplish the strength feats you suggest here.

The first statement I don't get... A female that max's out the FEMALE test WILL NOT exceed the Male test standard, not in the Corps anyway. As for the feats of strength I mentioned, most of my Marines could do these things. Some not, but most could. I have never seen a female even come close to performing as we'll as a male on the Combat Fitness Test, there is a reason they carry other females and not men.

Having said all that, I don't doubt their heart or their courage. I've known awesome hard a$$ female Marines, not one remotely as strong as me (I'm no beast). I doubt their physical ability. People will die. This isn't about equality or feel good politics. People will die, simple as that. If the female can compete on a physical level with her peers... It's another story, but then we move to the other issues.

 

[dross]

When I was in the Army, the female max would not have passed the male minimum.

 

[Khazik]

I'm against it:
I believe (no expert, just an educated guess) the reason muscular deterioration for men is slower than women is due to increased natural testosterone/adrenaline factors, maybe increased ATP catabolic factors. In the marines, you get the same meals as your unit, not one person eats more often than the other, so stating muscular deterioration was faster in her than her male counterparts has to do with metabolic rates relating to gender, not 'spirit'. I also believe the higher testosterone & adrenaline have an increased effectiveness on men performing necessary physical movements (like the dummy drag) given the higher % of upper body muscle mass women genetically lack.

I dont think it's a question of heart or spirit, mostly gender capability (usually shorter than men, less upper body muscle mass, etc..). Women can prove themselves in many useful ways I'd far rather not a man do, i.e. a therapist (naturally more compassionate than men, more in touch with emotions) to help those with PTSD. Women also are usually more patient than men, which served Russian snipers in WW2 well.

I am also against this because of a primary reason, and thats genetics-non-physical related. If a woman screams from pain or terror, or just plain screams, it is an instinctual uncontrollable response, for every man within earshot and then some, to turn towards said woman screaming. It is about genetically ingrained in every swinging-d**ks brain to assist, protect, or care for a woman before a man. Dont believe me? Scare your GF/wife/sister/mother enough to scream in public and see how many men turn your way. Now have a man scream (we usually dont lol) in the same sense and see how many actually laugh.

I had a woman scream while I was at work, not sure why, but after being perfectly calm and no effect from the green tea I had drank earlier the natural response I found in myself was a surge of adrenaline, hypersensitivity & anxiety, and ready to draw my gun. Her friend probably scared her, but I didn't calm down for hours... thanks to that damn caffeine....

 

[mike8170]

There is much more to this than most people think. For example, Army regulations state that a shower must be provided for female soldiers at least once in a 24 hr period. Now, as a 1st Sergeant in a light infantry company, how is this going to be accomplished? It doesn't matter if it is a 28 day JRTC rotation or sitting on a mountain in the 'Stan. This is completely different from an MP unit that conducts its operations and returns to a FOB. My last Iraq tour, we had females attached to our company, in the support role, and it is a logistical nightmare, especially planning missions that would be out of the wire days at a time. I have seen women in the Airborne that would have to be helped up and basically carried to the door since their equipment weighed 2x what they did. This move is nothing but pandering to the left and un-informed, especially since women in combat get the same benefits as men without serving in Combat Arms. Heck, they even get awarded Combat Action and Combat Medic badges for performing under fire.

 

[Survivalcookie]

Going to be blunt...sorry guys...women are not men, What happens when she has a heavy period. Guys do not have to deal with this. Think about it...

 

[5.56'aholic]

I do not think the restriction has ever been due to lack of qualification. I have seen many women that can out qualify men on marksmanship. Physical stamina is a moot point these days. What is really at stake is the simple fact of what an enemy combatant will do to a female solider when captured. The have no respect for their own women in most case scenarios, why would they have any more for ours? All it will take is one lawsuit after the fact and it will be back to the way it was.

 

[CarmelHP]

As far as getting pregnant, well gentlemen, that requires your involvement, be responsible.

More politically correct tripe. If women are getting pregnant it matters not if it was a gangbang or a virgin birth, it leaves a hole in the unit. If having women in combat units adversely affects combat readiness shouldn't the defense of the nation override PC whitewash?

 

[Khazik]

I do not think the restriction has ever been due to lack of qualification. I have seen many women that can out qualify men on marksmanship. Physical stamina is a moot point these days. What is really at stake is the simple fact of what an enemy combatant will do to a female solider when captured. The have no respect for their own women in most case scenarios, why would they have any more for ours? All it will take is one lawsuit after the fact and it will be back to the way it was.

Ya, capture is something I forgot to mention, couldn't agree more. Imagine having one of our "combat women" captured, repeatedly raped and beaten as torture by their whole 150 man strong outfit... This nation would kill anyone in sight related to politics, or resort to nuclear strikes, there would be no end. It'd be like Helen of Troy, we'd start another or more violent war for one woman, for who but a few wanted her there to prove a point.

 

[rooster]

Gender inequaility exists in the military. no doubt about it. its called the MALE and FEMALE pt standards.

How in the heck is it fair or equal that a 20 yr old woman maxes her run time at 15:36 ,that is the bare minimum for a 20 yr old man

 

[actaeon277]

I do not think the restriction has ever been due to lack of qualification. I have seen many women that can out qualify men on marksmanship. Physical stamina is a moot point these days. What is really at stake is the simple fact of what an enemy combatant will do to a female solider when captured. The have no respect for their own women in most case scenarios, why would they have any more for ours? All it will take is one lawsuit after the fact and it will be back to the way it was.

Huh?
You mean they don't have to carry heavy armor and weapons anymore? Or run??

 

[MTC]

Gender inequaility exists in the military. no doubt about it. its called the MALE and FEMALE pt standards.

How in the heck is it fair or equal that a 20 yr old woman maxes her run time at 15:36 ,that is the bare minimum for a 20 yr old man

Yeah. Often seen whenever this topic comes up is the phrase that "if females meet the same standards then ..." ... except they're not required to. Brought up my last APFT scorecard from 20+ years ago. Maybe they changed something since then, but there is a huge difference in the male and female physical standards (gradually stepped down for age) in both categories.
There is, and always was (IME) that one guy that 'knew' that one girl that (could do this or that). Even if true, the exception doesn't disprove the rule. And the military forces -- especially combat arms units -- of the United States is no place to be conducting experiments in social(ist) engineering.

More politically correct tripe. If women are getting pregnant it matters not if it was a gangbang or a virgin birth, it leaves a hole in the unit. If having women in combat units adversely affects combat readiness shouldn't the defense of the nation override PC whitewash?

Nailed.
Combat readiness and unit cohesion trumps "feel good" political meddling.

 

[cobber]

Is it just me, or does Panetta look kind of androgynous here? In an ungood fashion?

I was thinking Molly Yard.

 

[techres]

Lyudmila Pavlichenko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ATOMonkey]

Logistics is a huge concern, especially if you're the officer that has to keep track of these women. When you're digging a barracks out of the side of a mountain while taking fire, do you really want to have to think about digging a separate one for the women? Showers? Latrines?

Also at issue is discipline. Let's not forget the average age of a soldier is about 20 y/o and then remember what you were like when you were 20.

It's bad enough keeping track of all the degrading things men do to each other on an outpost. Now imagine having to deal with them doing that to a woman. Worse yet, what if she is a slut? Do you want to deal with all that drama?

Looking at this from the perspective of a junior officer who is already up to his neck is BS paperwork, this ruling is a just one more headache that he doesn't need.

IMO, any woman assigned to a front line combat unit will likely spend most of her time behind the wire at the FOB, not the outpost, just because it's easier.

 

[the1kidd03]

Simply put, I disagree with the decision and think it will prove to be a bigger problem than most think.

No need to elaborate as pretty much everyone else here has posted all of my issues with it.

 

[Trooper]

I don't think it's a good idea. 1. Women aren't held to the same standard. 2. Most women aren't as physically strong as males. 3. Most women don't handle the stress well. 4. Sex

Even most men do not deal well with combat. Basically combat units are for the young. By your mid 30s most NCOs and officers are being moved "upstairs" to headquarters as combat, like sports, tends to favor the young.

Units that I worked with had the 11Bs out every morning doing five mile runs with 60 lbs packs. And twice a day in the gym doing upper body workouts. If you were over 24% body fat then you were on your way out of the unit.

I doubt that many women have the levels of testosterone needed to put on upper body muscle. Yes there are some rather big women (look at some of the women on the frontier back in the 1800s). But anyone who weights less than 140 lbs (mostly muscle) is going to have issues with being in the infantry.

I know what the feminists want. It is to put more women in battalions and company grade units as supply, admin and medical, not infantry. I really doubt that many will even want to be at that level, given the daily demands on fitness.

Back in the late '90s, I was with a headquarters in Europe. We had an exercise where the staff folks briefed the O3 daily with fake data. I was talking with the G1 (admin) and suggested that they use real data. It shocked the General that over 10% of his troops were non deployable at any one time. Never had been briefed before. And also the high level of suicides among single parent mothers (soldiers), at least one or two per month.

We have another war and the females (and the gays) will all being heading to get out of combat units. We had that problem in Desert Storm. Had one young (19) female clerk-typist all upset that her whole class in AIT was shipped directly to Saudi. She had a baby and was upset that she could not go home right after AIT. Said she was only in for college money. Basically a mercenary.

 

[Designer99]

Maybe I am old fashioned, but I think placing our sisters, mothers and future mothers in harms way by way of the battlefield has placed the level of the Obama administration even lower!

The capture, torture and gang rapes of Jessica Lynch and Shoshana Johnson, a single mother, will be duplictaed again and again.

We need to spare our women from the carnage and cruelty of war!

Real Men don't send their women to fight their battles!

Your Straw-man:
The Obama administration wants women to be on the front lines in harm's way, despite the tragedies of Lynch and Johnson, and is there for not a "real man." You make a good case!


The Truth:
- The Defense Secretary, Leon Panetta made the decision “upon the recommendation of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.”

- Nobody is forcing women onto the front lines. They are asking for it.

 

[kedie]

These are the 2013 APFT standards for the 17-21 age groups.

Male:
42 pushups in 2min.
53 situps in 2min.
2 mile run in 15:54.

Female
19 pushups in 2min.
53 situps in 2min.
2 mile run in 18:54.

A female would have to max out on pushups and the two mile run to meet the minimum male standard. In addition to the standard 3 event APFT, many infantry units, including my old unit, 1st BDE 101st Abn Div, required a pullup event. 10 pullups was minimum. A bare minimum APFT score would get you remedial PT, and treated like a ****bag by the rest of your platoon.

So to say that females are meeting the same standards is false. If females want a set of crossed rifles lets start with 42,53 and 15:54 standards for everyone and go from there.

 

[Trooper]

These are the 2013 APFT standards for the 17-21 age groups.

Male:
42 pushups in 2min.
53 situps in 2min.
2 mile run in 15:54.

Female
19 pushups in 2min.
53 situps in 2min.
2 mile run in 18:54.

A female would have to max out on pushups and the two mile run to meet the minimum male standard. In addition to the standard 3 event APFT, many infantry units, including my old unit, 1st BDE 101st Abn Div, required a pullup event. 10 pullups was minimum. A bare minimum APFT score would get you remedial PT, and treated like a ****bag by the rest of your platoon.

So to say that females are meeting the same standards is false. If females want a set of crossed rifles lets start with 42,53 and 15:54 standards for everyone and go from there.

A PT test is one thing, reality is another. Can they perform in combat? Or would they weaken the unit? If we get rid of males who can not keep up, then wouldn't that also happen with females?