AYOOB: IS IT TIME TO RETIRE THE 1911?

[wcd]

I was referring to Ayoob and his lack of support for the 2A insisting that people should be denied their freedom until they have jumped through hoops that he deems appropriate.

Ok makes sense. I have a mixed opinion of him. At times he seems to be inconsistent at best. But I have never met him so it’s hard to formulate an accurate assessment of his character.

 

[churchmouse]

Depends on who the other talking head is and what each person is espousing. Who the messenger is isn't an irrelevant thing, particularly since it can clarify the message or more specifically the bias behind it.




No, for the simple reason that he wasn't teaching you from his own experience. He was teaching what the military told him to teach which (hopefully) is an accumulation of lessons learned from the prior combat experience of others. Thats far different than firearms instructors all of whom are selling their own resume as their qualifications.




I agree that being involved in a defensive shooting doesn't make you qualified to be an instructor. I also agree that being a police office doesn't qualify you either. However just because these things in isolation dont make someone into something else, doesn't mean that its crazy to have a set of standards for a particular job, especially if one is to hail themselves as an expert.

I expect people who consider themselves as experts in law enforcement tactics to have made hundreds of felony arrests. I expect people who teach defensive shooting techniques to have been involved in defensive shootings. Nothing vets theory like the real world and if you dont have real world experience then a theory is all you have.

So much could be said as to your analogy. So much but I am on my phone and that is not the proper device for me to post up something as deep as this will get.
Just know I see flaws in your view points.
Several.
Yes you have a strong argument but no. Way too many holes.
More later.

 

[cbhausen]

I talked to Mas on the phone once when I called to discuss taking a class of his… he was not conversational at all, almost aloof I’d say. And the way he craps all over OC… I’ll pass on his opinions and training. But it’ if you like him and his message hey, go for it.

 

[wcd]

I talked to Mas on the phone once when I called to discuss taking a class of his… he was not conversational at all, almost aloof I’d say. And the way he craps all over OC… I’ll pass on his opinions and training. But it’ if you like him and his message hey, go for it.

I think back in the days when he wrote in the Gravest Extreme he may have been more in touch with reality. But Honestly I do believe an ar could be made that perhaps he is an elitist.

With regards to training I Honestly believe that there are better options and opportunities out there.

 

[DDadams]

Yeah. Frankly it is time to retire the old single stack 45 1911 for an edc.

Doesn't mean I won't buy them or like them. But as a carry gun? No way.

Nearly all the changes these days in our worlds norms are crazy but this wouldn't be a crazy one.

I know the article doesn't advocate for this but I, as a lowly nobody, do think it's an outdated carry option and has been since the 2011 came out. If you need your 1911 to feel safe get a 2011 instead and have a much better weapon.

Maybe I'm being sarcastic... maybe not. Either way I'll make someone mad and someone happy.

 

[wcd]

Yeah. Frankly it is time to retire the old single stack 45 1911 for an edc.

Doesn't mean I won't buy them or like them. But as a carry gun? No way.

Nearly all the changes these days in our worlds norms are crazy but this wouldn't be a crazy one.

I know the article doesn't advocate for this but I, as a lowly nobody, do think it's an outdated carry option and has been since the 2011 came out. If you need your 1911 to feel safe get a 2011 instead and have a much better weapon.

Maybe I'm being sarcastic... maybe not. Either way I'll make someone mad and someone happy.

Devi’s advocate, let’s talk when the polymer wonders hit over 100 years of use.

Ergonomics although I am sure unheard of back in the day are a thing along with trigger pull. I will take 8 Rounds or 10 of 9 mm ( Sorry Mouse) any day of the week. Many rely on a 1911 every day for good reason

But to each their own.

 

[DDadams]

Devi’s advocate, let’s talk when the polymer wonders hit over 100 years of use.

Ergonomics although I am sure unheard of back in the day are a thing along with trigger pull. I will take 8 Rounds or 10 of 9 mm ( Sorry Mouse) any day of the week. Many rely on a 1911 every day for good reason

But to each their own.

Devils advocate circa 1930

My horse and buggy is better than a Ford. Let's talk again when your automobile has been in use for 100 years

 

[mark40sw]

Devils advocate circa 1930

My horse and buggy is better than a Ford. Let's talk again when your automobile has been in use for 100 years

Your horse still going after 100 years?

 

[churchmouse]

Yeah. Frankly it is time to retire the old single stack 45 1911 for an edc.

Doesn't mean I won't buy them or like them. But as a carry gun? No way.

Nearly all the changes these days in our worlds norms are crazy but this wouldn't be a crazy one.

I know the article doesn't advocate for this but I, as a lowly nobody, do think it's an outdated carry option and has been since the 2011 came out. If you need your 1911 to feel safe get a 2011 instead and have a much better weapon.

Maybe I'm being sarcastic... maybe not. Either way I'll make someone mad and someone happy.

Just an opinion Amigo. Agree or not it's just an opinion.

 

[88E30M50]

Devils advocate circa 1930

My horse and buggy is better than a Ford. Let's talk again when your automobile has been in use for 100 years

The horse and buggy analogy doesn't hold water. Today's vehicles are a massive improvement over those of even 50 years ago but today’s handguns present a marginal improvement if even any at all.

The civilian EDC handgun is simply a tool to use to stop an attack on yourself or another person. It needs to be reliable and accurate. Beyond that, it needs mastered by the carrier.

An agency used handgun has many other requirements. Volume discounts, differing use cases and the needs of a very diverse user community change what makes sense in that environment.

I don't understand why an individuals would saddle themselves with the limitations faced by large agencies in the mistaken belief that what a large agency chooses makes it a good choice for themselves. It would be like someone choosing to buy 80/20 ground beef with soy fillers based on the cafeteria at work choosing that, so it must be the best choice

 

[xwing]

I have a Colt 1911 in my safe, and I enjoy it at the range. But I would never carry it. Too big to be comfortable on my body, and don't like carrying "cocked and locked". I prefer a subcompact DA/SA where that first trigger pull both cocks and fires.

But of course, "to each his own". I suspect that while many carry 1911-style pistols, striker-fired or DA/SA pistols are much more popular. Would be an interesting poll, if it hasn't been done already.

 

[DDadams]

The horse and buggy analogy doesn't hold water. Today's vehicles are a massive improvement over those of even 50 years ago but today’s handguns present a marginal improvement if even any at all.

The civilian EDC handgun is simply a tool to use to stop an attack on yourself or another person. It needs to be reliable and accurate. Beyond that, it needs mastered by the carrier.

An agency used handgun has many other requirements. Volume discounts, differing use cases and the needs of a very diverse user community change what makes sense in that environment.

I don't understand why an individuals would saddle themselves with the limitations faced by large agencies in the mistaken belief that what a large agency chooses makes it a good choice for themselves. It would be like someone choosing to buy 80/20 ground beef with soy fillers based on the cafeteria at work choosing that, so it must be the best choice

I don't understand why someone would saddle themselves over the limitations of a 45 1911 rather having a 9mm 2011.

I love 1911s guys. But not as an edc or carry option at all.

 

[Amishman44]

Blasphemy! May JMB come to you in your dreams and tell you the error of your thoughts!

Pretty much...and then school you in accuracy and trigger speed!!!

 

[88E30M50]

I don't understand why someone would saddle themselves over the limitations of a 45 1911 rather having a 9mm 2011.

I love 1911s guys. But not as an edc or carry option at all.

What limitations? .45 is an effective round in a slim, easy to be accurate with platform. Grip ergos on the 2011 never felt right to me. You compromise on ergonomics in the name of capacity.

There's not a thing wrong with the 1911 if that's your cup of tea and work to master the platform

 

[DDadams]

What limitations? .45 is an effective round in a slim, easy to be accurate with platform. Grip ergos on the 2011 never felt right to me. You compromise on ergonomics in the name of capacity.

There's not a thing wrong with the 1911 if that's your cup of tea and work to master the platform

Having less than half of the rounds is a big limitation in my opinion. I've seen enough body cam footage from police shootings to feel like 8-9 rounds is not enough for me to feel comfortable.

And the ergonomics is such a personal thing. The 2011 is better in that regard for me as well.

The 1911 is just the rose colored sunglasses sweetheart for so many old folks there's NO way to convince most otherwise. Especially from some random dude on the internet like me.

I just wanted to stir the pot because I really take the title of the article to heart. I don't think the 1911 is a smart carry option in this day.

I'm also not a fan of 45 over 9mm.

You do know 9mm literally blows the lungs out of a human right? My friend Joe told me that. Why would you need anything stronger than that? You could blow 18 lungs out with a Staccato!

I don't know the organs 45 can blow out of the body but I'd rather have 18 in a magazine

 

[88E30M50]

Sorry, I didn't realize that you were a police officer. That is a very different situation that demands capacity. The more, the better in fact. For civilians like me that are not targeted and don't seek those that shouldn't be on the street, having the luxury of choosing what I shoot best is something I really like.

Truth be told though, I carry a P229 in .357 Sig more than I carry my 1911s. Love the 1911 but the P229 is one of my other favorites

 

[flatlander]

I believe it was Cooper who said that the wundernines with high capacity mags give you a lot more opportunities to miss vs 1911.
I am not a LEO so the odds of me needing the high capacity given to me by the high cap nines is low. My quick run around town EDC is a Glock 43 with extra mag. When I go into Marion County it's either my Ronin .45 or G19 also with extra mags.
My Ronin and Colt Comp in .45 are the 2 most enjoyable to shoot due to the ergonomics and triggers. Some guns just don't fit my hands including the 2011's. I don't feel under gunned carrying any of them. I still will sweep off the nonexistent safety when drawing my Glocks but it's no big deal.

 

[wcd]

I don't understand why someone would saddle themselves over the limitations of a 45 1911 rather having a 9mm 2011.

I love 1911s guys. But not as an edc or carry option at all.

Saddle not hardly. I have a choice and my choice is not guided by a bureaucracy, cost savings measures or ignorance. My choice is a 1911. Like many I am not alone in this choice.

Capacity not an issue, that’s where training practice, skill set come into play. Extra magazines are a thing and it’s not uncommon for me to carry 40 rounds. Granted is average Joe going to need that many rounds? Odds are against it. Additionally for the most part in reality with citizen involved shootings if you have not prevailed out of the gate your odds for success are bleak. By the time the situation erodes to the point where you have to draw, most likely you are already behind the curve.

Mindset, skill and an a accurate platform are more important than capacity.

Your opinion may vary.

 

[DDadams]

Saddle not hardly. I have a choice and my choice is not guided by a bureaucracy, cost savings measures or ignorance. My choice is a 1911. Like many I am not alone in this choice.

Capacity not an issue, that’s where training practice, skill set come into play. Extra magazines are a thing and it’s not uncommon for me to carry 40 rounds. Granted is average Joe going to need that many rounds? Odds are against it. Additionally for the most part in reality with citizen involved shootings if you have not prevailed out of the gate your odds for success are bleak. By the time the situation erodes to the point where you have to draw, most likely you are already behind the curve.

Mindset, skill and an a accurate platform are more important than capacity.

Your opinion may vary.

I have a choice and opinion as well but apparently mine makes me ignorant and poor?

This is why I posted my opinion.

The "1911 is the king" crowd gets so angry when someone doesn't agree.

Edit: just remember, I'm not insulting your mother or anything. Don't take it so personally. It's just an outdated gun. It isn't that personal or deep.

 

[wcd]

I have a choice and opinion as well but apparently mine makes me ignorant and poor?

This is why I posted my opinion.

The "1911 is the king" crowd gets so angry when someone doesn't agree.

Edit: just remember, I'm not insulting your mother or anything. Don't take it so personally. It's just an outdated gun. It isn't that personal or deep.

No your opinion does matter to you absolutely. To you 100%. Additionally I did not say that you were Ignorant or poor. You may well be a blazing ignorant buffoon? I have no idea.

Honestly in order for someone to become angry they would have to place some value and care about your opinion. Not being sarcastic or derogatory just providing a basis for my statement.

Likewise you are free to have the mistaken belief that the 1911 is outdated. For something that is outdated there sure seems to be a lot of manufacturers out there that can not keep up with production demands for as you put it an a outdated weapon. I

You opinion is just that it has no impact on the viability of any handgun for any given purpose.