Gun show loophole closing?

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  • HoughMade

    Grandmaster
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    Oct 24, 2012
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    Thoughts from case law:

    "[T]he proof showed conclusively that appellant had no license, purchased thirty guns from dealers in El Paso during a four month period and sold them for a profit in this country and Mexico. This evidence amply satisfied the definition of dealing in firearms."

    United States v. Hernandez, 662 F.2d 289, 291 (5th Cir. 1981)

    "[T]he government must prove both willingness to deal and more than an occasional sale in order to prove the status of the accused as one engaged in the business of dealing in firearms."

    "[T]he test...for determining whether an accused is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is whether he has guns on hand or is ready and able to procure them for the purpose of selling them from time to time to such persons as might be accepted as customers."

    United States v. Berry, 644 F.2d 1034, 1037 (5th Cir. 1981)

    "[T]he Government need not prove that the defendant's primary business was dealing in firearms or that he necessarily made a profit from such dealing; 'it must (however) show a willingness (on the defendant's part) to deal, a profit motive, and a greater degree of activity than occasional sales by a hobbyist.'"

    United States v. Masters, 622 F.2d 83, 88 (4th Cir. 1980)

    "While we can conceive of a single transaction sufficiently large enough in number of guns and the price paid to constitute engaging in the business of dealing in firearms, ordinarily one sale will not be sufficient to meet the statutory requirement. The use of the word “dealing” connotes a regular course of conduct carried on over a period of time or, at least, on more than one or two unrelated occasions."

    United States v. Tarr, 589 F.2d 55, 59 (1st Cir. 1978)
     

    Expat

    Pdub
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    NRA Statement on Recent
    DOJIATF Final Rule FAIRFAX, VA - Randy Kozuch, Executive Director of the NRA Institute for Legislative Action (NRA-ILA), released the following statement on today's posting of the DOJ/ATF Final Rule dealing with the definition of
    firearms dealers: "This latest Biden Administration attack on law-abiding gun owners is a blatant attempt to coerce Americans to forego legal activity with firearms under threat of potential confiscation of their lawfully acquired and constitutionally protected property. The Administration has conceded that it cannot enforce this unlawful rule in criminal cases because they know that it exceeds the limited authority granted to them by Congress and, in some cases, expressly contradicts the statutory text. NRA is already working to use all means
    available to stop this unlawful rule."
     

    GunsNstuff

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    Feb 27, 2011
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    So we have to trust the feds to not go after a guy that sold a gun on here that he didn't shoot anymore? Because if the feds go after you for selling that one gun, you will be convicted of a gun crime. Civilians cannot fight the federal government and win in court on their own.
     

    Expat

    Pdub
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    I have a gun or two in my safe that have been there for more than 20 years.
    By this law, if I can't make a profit, I have to sell them at 20 year old prices?
    :poop:
    My first gun I bought was a S&W Mod 66. I think I gave $300 for it… I don’t see that being my asking price whatever the dog killers think.
     

    CallSign Snafu

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    Apr 3, 2015
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    I have a gun or two in my safe that have been there for more than 20 years.
    By this law, if I can't make a profit, I have to sell them at 20 year old prices?
    :poop:
    No. You can sell them at market value, your motivation for selling guns can't be to engage in the business of selling firearms to turn profit. If you are just thinning some stuff out of the herd as part of normal collecting or hobby activities it is okay to sell your gun at a normal market rate or whatever you want really.
     

    Leadeye

    Grandmaster
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    Jan 19, 2009
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    There is no "gun show loophole". There never was.

    Since 18 USC 922(a)(1)(A) was enacted (1968), it has been illegal for "Any person" "except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to "engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms,..."

    So now we come to what "engage in the business of...dealing in firearms" means.

    Thought exercise- putting aside the "shall not be infringed" aspects of this and dealing with the fact that this law exists, let's hear your thoughts as to a logical definition of "engage in the business of...dealing in firearms".

    I think what concerns most is what the government thinks is the definition of "being in business" is. Something I suppose that in time will be worked out in court after somebody is arrested for selling 1 gun.

    How would an ordinary citizen perform a background check?
     

    Mgderf

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    No. You can sell them at market value, your motivation for selling guns can't be to engage in the business of selling firearms to turn profit. If you are just thinning some stuff out of the herd as part of normal collecting or hobby activities it is okay to sell your gun at a normal market rate or whatever you want really.
    See the rub here is this.
    Market value today would be 3-4x what I paid for some of these.
    A 4 fold increase in money received vs spent is what most would consider a "profit".

    I don't trust the federal government or the D.O.J. not to bastardize the definitions here.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Aug 18, 2011
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    See the rub here is this.
    Market value today would be 3-4x what I paid for some of these.
    A 4 fold increase in money received vs spent is what most would consider a "profit".

    I don't trust the federal government or the D.O.J. not to bastardize the definitions here.
    Did you keep a record of what you paid? No? Problem solved. :thumbsup:
     

    GunsNstuff

    Sharpshooter
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    12   1   0
    Feb 27, 2011
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    Indianapolis, IN
    Sure they can...and do.
    Not really. The feds have unlimited resources and like to say take this deal or face 10 years in federal prison. That's why their conviction rate is so ridiculously high. If you're arrested and charged over absolutely nothing, just because they lie and say you're in the business of selling guns, then offer you 6 months in jail and probation or go to trial, lose your house and everything you own because you have to sell it to fight, and get 10 years in prison if convicted, what will you do?
     
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