Hamas Launches Infiltration, Rocket Attack on Israel

ditcherman · Feb 2, 2024

BugI02 said:
Innocent until proven guilty doesn't even apply in the UK. You have a misunderstanding about just how unique our justice system is supposed to be and why

Ok, but don’t we think it should apply around the world?

DadSmith · Feb 3, 2024

ditcherman said:
Ok, but don’t we think it should apply around the world?

That's like asking should our constitutional rights which would require our constitution be established around the world.
Some cultures and ideals are not compatible.
Islam isn't compatible with our constitution.
Communism isn't compatible with our constitution.
Etc etc

AndreusMaximus · Feb 3, 2024

DadSmith said:
That's like asking should our constitutional rights which would require our constitution be established around the world.
Some cultures and ideals are not compatible.
Islam isn't compatible with our constitution.
Communism isn't compatible with our constitution.
Etc etc

Umm... no. I've been (rightly) correct on INGO several times for using phrases like "our Constitution gives us the right to X." Our rights to life and freedom don't come from the Constitution, they come form God, and everybody has those rights.

Unless you're talking about what I guess you could call the more procedural "rights", like the right to vote or the right to a trial by jury, then you may have a point.

But in this abstract discussion of rights, let's not forget the context, with is that @Shadow01 claims that every person is Gaza can be considered a combatant unless they prove otherwise:

Shadow01 said:
The burden of proof is on them. I have no obligation to assume their innocence. First rule of war is to win. Second rule is that there’s no other rules.

Let's not sugarcoat this. If he really means what he says, this means that every person from a 20-something male to a young woman carrying her baby in her arms, to an 80-year-old granny, is fair game, and can be gunned down just the same as an armed terrorist until they've somehow "proven" their non-combatant status.

This is, frankly, morally abhorrent. People's right to life doesn't disappear just because they don't live under our Constitution, or because their cultures and ideas aren't compatible with it. Just because their own culture doesn't respect their rights doesn't me we can't.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and play armchair moralist and try to dictate exactly what level of precautions Israel must or must not take. Israel was brutally attacked by a country whose civilian population, by any measurable metric, appears to support such savage attacks. So I'm not going to try to say that Israel has to take such and such measures to prevent civilian casualties, or keep non-combatant deaths below X number. I agree that it's war, a war that's even more vicious and savage than your typical modern war at that, so some civilian deaths are inevitable, and at this point whatever is truly necessary to win should be on the table for Israel. But in the midst of all that, whatever measures they believe they can take to avoid killing non-combatants, I'm going to commend them for it. And I can certainly say that I'm glad they don't take the approach of claiming that every man, woman, and child is a combatant until they prove themselves otherwise.

DadSmith · Feb 3, 2024

AndreusMaximus said:
Umm... no. I've been (rightly) correct on INGO several times for using phrases like "our Constitution gives us the right to X." Our rights to life and freedom don't come from the Constitution, they come form God, and everybody has those rights.

Unless you're talking about what I guess you could call the more procedural "rights", like the right to vote or the right to a trial by jury, then you may have a point.

But in this abstract discussion of rights, let's not forget the context, with is that @Shadow01 claims that every person is Gaza can be considered a combatant unless they prove otherwise:

Let's not sugarcoat this. If he really means what he says, this means that every person from a 20-something male to a young woman carrying her baby in her arms, to an 80-year-old granny, is fair game, and can be gunned down just the same as an armed terrorist until they've somehow "proven" their non-combatant status.

This is, frankly, morally abhorrent. People's right to life doesn't disappear just because they don't live under our Constitution, or because their cultures and ideas aren't compatible with it. Just because their own culture doesn't respect their rights doesn't me we can't.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and play armchair moralist and try to dictate exactly what level of precautions Israel must or must not take. Israel was brutally attacked by a country whose civilian population, by any measurable metric, appears to support such savage attacks. So I'm not going to try to say that Israel has to take such and such measures to prevent civilian casualties, or keep non-combatant deaths below X number. I agree that it's war, a war that's even more vicious and savage than your typical modern war at that, so some civilian deaths are inevitable, and at this point whatever is truly necessary to win should be on the table for Israel. But in the midst of all that, whatever measures they believe they can take to avoid killing non-combatants, I'm going to commend them for it. And I can certainly say that I'm glad they don't take the approach of claiming that every man, woman, and child is a combatant until they prove themselves otherwise.

I disagree if we as a country did not have said constitution we would not be any better off than any other country in the world right now.

So saying or believing that the rest of the world would want what we have is false. Cultural, religious, and ideological differences will not allow it to happen.

Yes God granted all those rights, but if a country doesn't believe in that or uphold those God given rights what then?

AndreusMaximus · Feb 3, 2024

DadSmith said:
I disagree if we as a country did not have said constitution we would not be any better off than any other country in the world right now.

I agree with that.

DadSmith said:
So saying or believing that the rest of the world would want what we have is false. Cultural, religious, and ideological differences will not allow it to happen.

I didn't say the rest of the world would want what we have. What I'm saying is that even though some people do live in a culture that doesn't respect people's right to life, and doesn't want to, it doesn't make that morally right. The fact that their own culture doesn't respect those rights doesn't mean they don't have them, nor does it man that an upright, moral person can walk in and go "Oh hi, you all civilians have a God-given right to life, but your culture doesn't respect that, so I guess I can blast and murder away without a care."

DadSmith said:
Yes God granted all those rights, but if a country doesn't believe in that or uphold those God given rights what then?

We hope and pray that that the country changes for the better, and whenever circumstances force us to interact with that country, we still try to respect the God-given rights of its citizens, regardless of their own wants/values/culture. At least at the most extremely basic level, like not randomly killing innocent women and children just because.

DadSmith · Feb 3, 2024

AndreusMaximus said:
At least at the most extremely basic level, like not randomly killing innocent women and children just because.

Well that should be normal for decent human beings.
The west has laws, as well as ideology that should preserve innocent civilians in war. I and I believe most service members feel the same. Even Israel has our western beliefs even after those people (Palestinians, and not all did as there are Christian Palestinians ) slaughtered, and or cheered on the slaughter of their (Israelis) people.
Like the video above of that scared little boy, Palestinian, and that IDF conscript was trying to comfort him, and protect him.
Now eastern, and middle eastern ideals are totally different. 180 degree turn from western ideals, and if we don't wake up to that we are in for some serious hurt.

Shadow01 · Feb 3, 2024

AndreusMaximus said:
Umm... no. I've been (rightly) correct on INGO several times for using phrases like "our Constitution gives us the right to X." Our rights to life and freedom don't come from the Constitution, they come form God, and everybody has those rights.

Unless you're talking about what I guess you could call the more procedural "rights", like the right to vote or the right to a trial by jury, then you may have a point.

But in this abstract discussion of rights, let's not forget the context, with is that @Shadow01 claims that every person is Gaza can be considered a combatant unless they prove otherwise:

Let's not sugarcoat this. If he really means what he says, this means that every person from a 20-something male to a young woman carrying her baby in her arms, to an 80-year-old granny, is fair game, and can be gunned down just the same as an armed terrorist until they've somehow "proven" their non-combatant status.

This is, frankly, morally abhorrent. People's right to life doesn't disappear just because they don't live under our Constitution, or because their cultures and ideas aren't compatible with it. Just because their own culture doesn't respect their rights doesn't me we can't.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and play armchair moralist and try to dictate exactly what level of precautions Israel must or must not take. Israel was brutally attacked by a country whose civilian population, by any measurable metric, appears to support such savage attacks. So I'm not going to try to say that Israel has to take such and such measures to prevent civilian casualties, or keep non-combatant deaths below X number. I agree that it's war, a war that's even more vicious and savage than your typical modern war at that, so some civilian deaths are inevitable, and at this point whatever is truly necessary to win should be on the table for Israel. But in the midst of all that, whatever measures they believe they can take to avoid killing non-combatants, I'm going to commend them for it. And I can certainly say that I'm glad they don't take the approach of claiming that every man, woman, and child is a combatant until they prove themselves otherwise.

Do you respect their “rights” enough to go and pick the innocent out in the middle of a war zone? They voted for their government and their government started a war. Until they prove they had nothing to do with the actions of their government, they are guilty by association.
it is never up to me to prove your innocence. It is up to you to prove that. Same with me, it is my innocence to prove. And we are talking of war here. Not some peaceful daily life under a government supported constitution. Our constitution is ours. If others choose not to follow the same concepts, that’s on them. I have no desire or heart felt need to force our way of life on them. I leave people alone. I expect the same in return. If you strike at me, you will not get a say in how I retaliate. I see how Israel has had to deal with this since 48 in the same way only on a larger scale. Those that strike at Israel and even those on the sideline have no say in how Israel chooses to retaliate. If there are truly tens of thousands of innocent lives in gaza, why have they not used their numbers and time to foster peace among their own brethren? Surely the innocent outnumbered the terrorists…. I’ve never read or heard anyone opine on the Horrible loss of innocent Germans during WWII. I’m sure there were elderly, sick, young children that were all lost, but crickets. Gaza is somebody’s great attempt to get their 15 minutes of virtue signaling.

DadSmith · Feb 3, 2024

AndreusMaximus · Feb 3, 2024

DadSmith said:
Well that should be normal for decent human beings.
The west has laws, as well as ideology that should preserve innocent civilians in war. I and I believe most service members feel the same. Even Israel has our western beliefs even after those people (Palestinians, and not all did as there are Christian Palestinians ) slaughtered, and or cheered on the slaughter of their (Israelis) people.
Like the video above of that scared little boy, Palestinian, and that IDF conscript was trying to comfort him, and protect him.
Now eastern, and middle eastern ideals are totally different. 180 degree turn from western ideals, and if we don't wake up to that we are in for some serious hurt.

Indeed, from what I can tell, the Israelis have gone above and beyond in their efforts to protect civilian lives, even when faced with a foe that does not reciprocate the favor in any way, shape, or form. I'm saying I think that's commendable of them.

AndreusMaximus · Feb 3, 2024

Shadow01 said:
Do you respect their “rights” enough to go and pick the innocent out in the middle of a war zone? They voted for their government and their government started a war. Until they prove they had nothing to do with the actions of their government, they are guilty by association.
it is never up to me to prove your innocence. It is up to you to prove that. Same with me, it is my innocence to prove. And we are talking of war here. Not some peaceful daily life under a government supported constitution. Our constitution is ours. If others choose not to follow the same concepts, that’s on them. I have no desire or heart felt need to force our way of life on them. I leave people alone. I expect the same in return. If you strike at me, you will not get a say in how I retaliate. I see how Israel has had to deal with this since 48 in the same way only on a larger scale. Those that strike at Israel and even those on the sideline have no say in how Israel chooses to retaliate. If there are truly tens of thousands of innocent lives in gaza, why have they not used their numbers and time to foster peace among their own brethren? Surely the innocent outnumbered the terrorists…. I’ve never read or heard anyone opine on the Horrible loss of innocent Germans during WWII. I’m sure there were elderly, sick, young children that were all lost, but crickets. Gaza is somebody’s great attempt to get their 15 minutes of virtue signaling.

Well, today is the day, I'll be the first one that you can hear say it: I think deliberately targeting civilians is wrong; to the extent that the USA, or anyone else, did it in WWII, it was wrong, and if Israel wakes up one day and decides to start doing it in Gaza, it'll be wrong there, too.

And I'm not saying there are tens of thousands of innocents in Gaza, either. It seems fairly evident that the number of people in Gaza who are not supportive of what Hamas is doing are a pretty slim minority. If anything, that makes their innocence all the more real; do you really think that a small minority without any means or numbers to combat their government deserves to bear the guilt of the wrong things their government does?

Frankly, I think you're looking at this all wrong-headed. The fact is that yes, some civilians and non-combatants are going to be killed as collateral damage, and that's the unfortunate reality of war. You can't avoid it completely and still win at the same time, and I get that.

But that doesn't mean that those innocents deserved to die, or that they somehow have to prove their innocence or else they are fair game to be massacred deliberately. If nothing else, surely you would admit that efforts to avoid killing elderly, infirm, and small children are to be commended? Or are you saying that an 80-year-old woman has no right to life because she didn't break out her walker and go try to overthrow Hamas?

Shadow01 · Feb 3, 2024

If they are not willing to risk their lives to make a change within their own country, then it is difficult for me to concern myself with how Israel ultimately secures their own future.

I’ll add that I see deliberately targeting and not putting forth extra effort to avoid casualties as not the same.

DadSmith · Feb 4, 2024

DadSmith · Feb 4, 2024

DadSmith · Feb 4, 2024

AndreusMaximus · Feb 5, 2024

Shadow01 said:
If they are not willing to risk their lives to make a change within their own country, then it is difficult for me to concern myself with how Israel ultimately secures their own future.

I’ll add that I see deliberately targeting and not putting forth extra effort to avoid casualties as not the same.

So, if I may ask, what have you been driving at this whole time?

We can both agree that deliberately targeting civilians is wrong, so that's at least some common ground to work form. The trouble I see is that you started out the conversation by saying, if I understood you correctly, that anyone who can't prove that they're a non-combatant should be treated as a combatant. But that would effectively erase the distinction between civilians and combatants, because how is a random person supposed to "prove" that they're a civilian?

And this is what I don't get: We see videos of Israeli soldiers aiding and comforting small children, women with babies in their arms, or even that one elderly woman whom Hamas cruelly tied down to a bed and left to die. Are you saying that to win this war Israel should've said, "Well, they didn't submit documented proof that they're not terrorists, or form a band of toddlers to go overthrow their government, so fire away me boys!" If that's not what you're saying, then what were you taking issue with? You keep repeating this rhetoric about how you don't care about the life of a single living human within Gaza unless they took up arms against Hamas, and they should all be considered combatants unless they can somehow prove otherwise. But what does that look like in practical terms? What, precisely, are you driving at?

Shadow01 · Feb 5, 2024

I’m driving at no expectation for Israel to use extraordinary means to differentiate combatants from civilians. By announcing evacuation areas they telegraph their plans. Secondly it’s war. I expect the same world silence afforded to the allies during WWII to be given to Israel. I don’t see the critics going to gaza to save the so called non-combatants. They just like to virtue signal from the safety of the sideline. plus they seem to be silent on the Israeli civilians that have been killed.
Sorry I just don’t sympathize with a society that has passively let terrorists take control, then when someone steps up to remove the terrorists, they criticize the manner in which it is done. Based on what we are seeing that is being taught in those UN funded schools, I’m not convinced there are any innocent civilians beyond the Christians. Israel deserves no criticism from those on the outside. They have not earned the right to criticize and gazains haven’t made any efforts to separate themselves from the actions of the terrorists. Israel can continue to prosecute this war as they choose. The rest of the world needs to shut their trap.

AndreusMaximus · Feb 5, 2024

Shadow01 said:
I’m driving at no expectation for Israel to use extraordinary means to differentiate combatants from civilians. By announcing evacuation areas they telegraph their plans. Secondly it’s war. I expect the same world silence afforded to the allies during WWII to be given to Israel. I don’t see the critics going to gaza to save the so called non-combatants. They just like to virtue signal from the safety of the sideline. plus they seem to be silent on the Israeli civilians that have been killed.
Sorry I just don’t sympathize with a society that has passively let terrorists take control, then when someone steps up to remove the terrorists, they criticize the manner in which it is done. Based on what we are seeing that is being taught in those UN funded schools, I’m not convinced there are any innocent civilians beyond the Christians. Israel deserves no criticism from those on the outside. They have not earned the right to criticize and gazains haven’t made any efforts to separate themselves from the actions of the terrorists. Israel can continue to prosecute this war as they choose. The rest of the world needs to shut their trap.

Well, if that's your point I think I can largely agree with that. I don't see how this equates to treating everyone in Gaza as "combatant until proven otherwise" but perhaps I am being too pedantic here.

I can't speak for others, but I certainly wasn't trying to criticize Israel for how they are doing things, and you're right that they absolutely need to pull out all the stops, so to speak, in order to completely eradicate Hamas, which probably means completely eradicating most of Gaza as it currently exists, if they want to avoid an endless repetition of the horrors of October 7. But whatever they feel they can do, in the midst of all this, to spare those who are innocent, like children and elderly, is good on them in my book.

Shadow01 · Feb 5, 2024

AndreusMaximus said:
Well, if that's your point I think I can largely agree with that. I don't see how this equates to treating everyone in Gaza as "combatant until proven otherwise" but perhaps I am being too pedantic here.

I can't speak for others, but I certainly wasn't trying to criticize Israel for how they are doing things, and you're right that they absolutely need to pull out all the stops, so to speak, in order to completely eradicate Hamas, which probably means completely eradicating most of Gaza as it currently exists, if they want to avoid an endless repetition of the horrors of October 7. But whatever they feel they can do, in the midst of all this, to spare those who are innocent, like children and elderly, is good on them in my book.

I guess my point is unless you have lived what Israel has lived, then you don’t have a dog in this fight, even if you have family in gaza. It’s a good thing I don’t call the shots for the Israeli military. My rule is there is one rule in war, win. Nothing else matters. My response to outside criticism would be that your opinion means nothing. Civilians in gaza are wearing the same garb as the terrorists. It’s wouldn’t be my priority to figure out who is who. My job would be to prosecute the war to the correct end As quickly as possible with as few Israeli casualties as possible. For the most part you are dealing with a moraless society with a religious zeal to kill all that do not submit. It’s impossible to find innocents in that.

Magyars · Feb 5, 2024

What about that Somali b*tch?

Hawkeye · Feb 5, 2024

Shadow01 said:
If they are not willing to risk their lives to make a change within their own country, then it is difficult for me to concern myself with how Israel ultimately secures their own future.

I’ll add that I see deliberately targeting and not putting forth extra effort to avoid casualties as not the same.

Israel's Gaza operation is not going to "secure" the furute of Gaza residents. Israel may destroy or severely cripple Hamas, but it will also polarize the residents agianst Israel, to the extent tehy are not already polarized.

Hamas Launches Infiltration, Rocket Attack on Israel

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

Grandmaster

Grandmaster

Master

Grandmaster

Master

Grandmaster

Master

Grandmaster

Master

Master

Master

Grandmaster

Grandmaster

Grandmaster

Master

Master

Master

Master

Grandmaster

Grandmaster

Log in

Site Supporter

Forum statistics