Secession: an academic discussion

[BugI02]

Frank.. Frank is that you?

I would volunteer for the BuSab

 

[Magyars]

'A Long Train of Abuses'

After over two centuries, the Declaration of Independence remains the most perfect instrument of human government ever devised by mankind. Its foundation (that our rights come from God, not men), its principles (that men only consent to be gove...

www.americanthinker.com

 

[Hawkeye]

I finally took the time to watch this video. It seemed to be mostly about not being allowed to discuss certain subjects. I did not hear a definite argument as to why or how States have a right to secede. THe closest I can get from it is by applying a rule of statutory construction that I learned in law school. Essentially, since secession was not prohibited in the Constitution, it must be a right retained by the States. That amy be a good argument for he original 13 colonies, but perhaps not so good for the retained of the States.

 

[oze]

I agree. It’s happening now. People are self-sorting. People are fleeing from California to redder states. When I heard Californians were moving to FL, I thought, oh ****. They’re gonna turn Florida blue. That obviously didn’t happen. I think the people who are leaving are mostly right leaning independents and Republicans who have realized they’ve lost the battle in the bat **** crazy states.

I don’t think we’re ready to talk about secession of states. Yet.

I self-sorted my family and me (kicking and screaming in my kids' case) back to Indiana from being ILL for 25 years a decade ago. The only lefty moved to SoCal, so ILL became effectively more blue by subtraction, and Indiana gained 3 elephants.

 

[BigRed]

Defining American Sovereignty – Abbeville Institute

www.abbevilleinstitute.org

Lengthy, but worth the read.

 

[jamil]

Where is the provisions in the constitution that say how secession would work? What are the responsibilities of the seceding state to the United states? What would be done with federal resources that exist within the state’s territory? How would disputes be resolved? That this information is conspicuously missing from the constitution, should we believe that these leaders, who supposedly believe ever state has a right to secede simply overlooked such an important transaction as separating from the union?

 

[manifest destiny]

Where is the provisions in the constitution that say how secession would work? What are the responsibilities of the seceding state to the United states? What would be done with federal resources that exist within the state’s territory? How would disputes be resolved? That this information is conspicuously missing from the constitution, should we believe that these leaders, who supposedly believe ever state has a right to secede simply overlooked such an important transaction as separating from the union?

Does the constitution demand each and every state must stay under the threat of war should they try to secede? I agree with you fully re: questions and complications galore. But I don't see any violence in simply walking away. I can't imagine Rhode Island operating as a country, but hey, if they wanna try...

 

[HoughMade]

Both the state and federal government would have to pass laws to allow a state to leave, but yes- it can be done without violence....but it cannot legally be done unilaterally.

 

[Trigger Time]

Like laws mean anything anymore when courts and federal law enforcement are corrupt AF

 

[manifest destiny]

Both the state and federal government would have to pass laws to allow a state to leave, but yes- it can be done without violence....but it cannot legally be done unilaterally.

Is it only unfounded folklore or did Texas reserve the right to legally leave the union?


As to the overall discussion of secession, I'd prefer to either a) effectively neuter the fed's strangle hold over the states and consequently individual citizens, or b) effectively neuter the fed's strangle hold over the states while the states realign according to their own political will - see eastern Oregon join Idaho and similar, or c) completely and utterly obliterate the current oppressive fed and replace it with a minimalist fed focused solely on security. Some states kinda suck. Some states really suck. But without a doubt the biggest, most oppressive, unfair force, dividing us and sucking the spirit out of the American people is the federal government.

 

[manifest destiny]

No we can't! Yes we can!

No, Texas can’t legally secede from the U.S., despite popular myth

The theme of independence has recurred throughout the history of Texas, which was a republic from 1836–45. But the Civil War established that a state cannot secede.

www.texastribune.org

For More Than 150 Years, Texas Has Had the Power to Secede…From Itself

A quirk of a 19th-century Congressional resolution could allow Texas to split up into five states

www.smithsonianmag.com

 

[HoughMade]

Is it only unfounded folklore or did Texas reserve the right to legally leave the union?


As to the overall discussion of secession, I'd prefer to either a) effectively neuter the fed's strangle hold over the states and consequently individual citizens, or b) effectively neuter the fed's strangle hold over the states while the states realign according to their own political will - see eastern Oregon join Idaho and similar, or c) completely and utterly obliterate the current oppressive fed and replace it with a minimalist fed focused solely on security. Some states kinda suck. Some states really suck. But without a doubt the biggest, most oppressive, unfair force, dividing us and sucking the spirit out of the American people is the federal government.

Myth.

And yes, rolling back the federal gvt. to the powers it has explicitly in the Constitution is the goal.

The 14th Amendment was not the biggest impediment to this, it was the 17th Amendment. Our founders were brilliant when they made the Senators beholden to the legislatures in their individual states. This prevented the passage of laws that took state power away and gave it to the feds. If the Senators did that, given that they were appointed by the state legislatures, they would not have office very long.

But a bunch of populist idiots wanted direct election of Senators because it seemed more democratic or some such drivel. So, we got the 17th Amendment.

 

[BigRed]

MSN

www.msn.com

I will simply note some of the examples the author points to would indicate that for many a secession of the heart is already underway.

 

[jamil]

MSN

www.msn.com

I will simply note some of the examples the author points to would indicate that for many a secession of the heart is already underway.

I think ti's true that secession of the heart is already under way. People can't agree on how to order society. The two sides are so far apart that it does not look to me like reconciliation is even possible. But I think for TPTB, it's not an option. That either one side or the other will impose it's will on the other.

 

[BigRed]

To Fight the State, Build Alternatives to the State | Ryan McMaken

Throughout its history, liberalism—the ideology today called “classical liberalism” or “libertarianism”—has suffered from the impression that it is primarily against things. This is not entirely wrong.

mises.org

PS: State can gtH

 

[sixGuns]

I think ti's true that secession of the heart is already under way. People can't agree on how to order society. The two sides are so far apart that it does not look to me like reconciliation is even possible. But I think for TPTB, it's not an option. That either one side or the other will impose it's will on the other.

Everyone seems to want to kill everyone they disagree with. Unfortunately, I feel you're right, but I hope not. Unless we can figure something out we're headed for another civil war and nobody will be the winner. Just imagine what happens when the UN, China, Russia and everyone else sees that the USA is a failed nation and comes to pick over the bones.

 

[jamil]

Everyone seems to want to kill everyone they disagree with. Unfortunately, I feel you're right, but I hope not. Unless we can figure something out we're headed for another civil war and nobody will be the winner. Just imagine what happens when the UN, China, Russia and everyone else sees that the USA is a failed nation and comes to pick over the bones.

I kinda think the civil war is under way. It's not a war between regions. It's a war between cultural norms. It's been fought on social media primarily. And it's starting to get bloody. Crazy trans person shoots 9 year olds, for **** sake. Presumably because she doesn't like the laws. And one side is backing that play. How long before there are more?

 

[sixGuns]

I kinda think the civil war is under way. It's not a war between regions. It's a war between cultural norms. It's been fought on social media primarily. And it's starting to get bloody. Crazy trans person shoots 9 year olds, for **** sake. Presumably because she doesn't like the laws. And one side is backing that play. How long before there are more?

I'd agree on it being more in the area of "cold." How long before more is up for debate. Whoever "wins" will be invited to the picnic of what I initially responded with. In my opinion, anyways. I can think of another thing that makes me queesy. China "reclaiming" Taiwan and unifying a divided USA into WW3. ****, too much internet for today.

 

[BigRed]

The Southern Remnant – Abbeville Institute

www.abbevilleinstitute.org

BTW, it is the third definition to which the author refers.

remnant

rĕm′nənt

noun​

1. Something left over; a remainder.
2. A piece of fabric remaining after the rest has been used or sold.
3. A surviving trace or vestige.

 

[BigRed]

"Nonsense on Stilts": The Rhetorical Cornerstone of the American Welfare/Warfare State | Mises Institute

In his new book, Paul C. Graham describes the 1789 Constitution as an attempted coup by the nationalists to consolidate power in the national capitol. At the

mises.org

Enjoy Hades, mr. lincoln.