Civil Religious Discussions : all things Christianity II

[DragonGunner]

TN jury says guilty. They sang and prayed, no harm was done except for the woman murdering their babies that day. They now face 11 years in prison, sentencing in July. You can bet it’s the democrat plan to persecute Christians and destroy the church, it’s the last thing holding this country together. When they figure out how to kill and silence the church they will do it.

 

[JettaKnight]

Got a link to an article? NM, found it.

On that day, a group of demonstrators gathered on the second floor of an office building in the hallway outside the Carafem Health Center Clinic. The group prayed, sang hymns, and urged women showing up to the clinic to not get abortions.

These weren't protestors across the street, but right there in hallway.

Video of the demonstration showed the group singing songs like “Holy, Holy, Holy,” and “Onward Christian Soldiers,”

Onward Christian Soldiers? Seems like an odd hymn to sing in that place. Is this protest about the most innocent and weak in our society or about the singers' own righteousness?


https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/six-...onspiracy-and-freedom-access-clinic-entrances

Looks like they could face up to 11 years.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/ne...y-convictions-nashville-blockade/72397522007/

On March 5, 2021, the group arrived at the clinic before it opened and stationed themselves throughout the office building it was located in. Prosecutors said that several of those involved recorded video of their actions, including one person who was apparently making a video to instruct others how to perform a "rescue," the term some anti-abortion activists use to describe protests of abortion clinics or efforts to dissuade individuals from seeking an abortion.

The group came prepared with pre-printed flyers that stated they were “[a]cting Biblically” and “rescuing the innocent" while also anticipating their arrests, stating, "what really happened today in Mount Juliet? Police arrested peaceful, obedient Christians!"

An officer with Mt. Juliet police testified that roughly 20-25 protesters were there that day. Police responded to the scene after the protesters refused to leave when asked by property managers and disrupted other businesses in the building.

Many of the protesters left after police warned that they would be arrested.

So, pre-printed flyers about their [hopeful] arrest? Hmm.
Making videos?

And, https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/elev...productive-health-services-facility-tennessee:

Boyd also began a Facebook livestream broadcast of the clinic blockade at 7:45 a.m. on March 5, 2021. This livestream broadcast was titled, in part, “Mount Juliet, Tennessee, Rescue March 5, 2021,” and livestreamed the blockade event as his coconspirators and others blocked the clinic’s entry doors and prevented a patient and an employee from entering. The livestream also broadcast members of the group attempting to engage a patient and her companion as Boyd told his livestream audience that the patient was a “mom coming to kill her baby.”

Sounds like they might have done more than sing and pray.


I wasn't there (maybe those videos are online?), and I wasn't in the courtroom (although a jury was), so I don't fully know what happened, but I'm old enough to know how these things can sometimes go too far. Maybe this was the case.


I'm totally anti-abortion, but I'm also pro-life, so saying something like, “mom coming to kill her baby" is far from compassionate. I admire their conviction and zeal, but it sounds like some of these people might be the same type as ones grabbing rocks for the woman at the well.

 

[JettaKnight]

Abortion is a terrible thing - nothing we want in our society God's world.

But the way to solve it isn't to humiliate and shame these women - single girls, families who can't make ends meet, the woman who was told her unborn bay has birth defects... We as Christians need to work to support these women with resources and love such that abortion isn't a choice worth making. And that doesn't come from laws, but from the hard work of showing love. It's all too easy to let our politicians condemn others.

We've been protesting clinics for years and it hasn't had the effect we want. Let's try love, compassion, and support.

When some travels two states over (as in this case) to protest at a TN clinic, are they the ones who can care for the young women making a difficult choice? I fail to see how that really helps. In fact, in my eyes (as a staunch anti-abortionists) it doesn't reflect good on our cause.

I fail see to see how these good intentioned folks could be seen as disciples of Christs in the eyes of the world.



...and they will know we are Christians by our love...

 

[chipbennett]

Got a link to an article? NM, found it.

These weren't protestors across the street, but right there in hallway.


Onward Christian Soldiers? Seems like an odd hymn to sing in that place. Is this protest about the most innocent and weak in our society or about the singers' own righteousness?


https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/six-...onspiracy-and-freedom-access-clinic-entrances

Looks like they could face up to 11 years.

https://www.tennessean.com/story/ne...y-convictions-nashville-blockade/72397522007/

So, pre-printed flyers about their [hopeful] arrest? Hmm.
Making videos?

And, https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/elev...productive-health-services-facility-tennessee:

Sounds like they might have done more than sing and pray.


I wasn't there (maybe those videos are online?), and I wasn't in the courtroom (although a jury was), so I don't fully know what happened, but I'm old enough to know how these things can sometimes go too far. Maybe this was the case.


I'm totally anti-abortion, but I'm also pro-life, so saying something like, “mom coming to kill her baby" is far from compassionate. I admire their conviction and zeal, but it sounds like some of these people might be the same type as ones grabbing rocks for the woman at the well.

The FACE Act is an unconstitutional violation of First Amendment-protected rights. The entire claim of illegality is based on the FACE Act.

Hopefully, this conviction begins the end of the FACE Act.

 

[chipbennett]

Abortion is a terrible thing - nothing we want in our society God's world.

But the way to solve it isn't to humiliate and shame these women - single girls, families who can't make ends meet, the woman who was told her unborn bay has birth defects... We as Christians need to work to support these women with resources and love such that abortion isn't a choice worth making. And that doesn't come from laws, but from the hard work of showing love. It's all too easy to let our politicians condemn others.

We've been protesting clinics for years and it hasn't had the effect we want. Let's try love, compassion, and support.

When some travels two states over (as in this case) to protest at a TN clinic, are they the ones who can care for the young women making a difficult choice? I fail to see how that really helps. In fact, in my eyes (as a staunch anti-abortionists) it doesn't reflect good on our cause.

I fail see to see how these good intentioned folks could be seen as disciples of Christs in the eyes of the world.



...and they will know we are Christians by our love...

All of these points are true, yet irrelevant to the legal question.

 

[foszoe]

The FACE Act is an unconstitutional violation of First Amendment-protected rights. The entire claim of illegality is based on the FACE Act.

Hopefully, this conviction begins the end of the FACE Act.

I agree for sure. Here comes the but! And to answer the question ahead of time, no I don't know or have a strongly held opinion other than I don't like the FACE Act law any more than I like a Hate Crime law or Hate Speech Law. I think they should all be done away with.

If the protest is taking place in a public forum. If it is taking place in a building and the protestor is asked to leave, at that point doesn't it become trespass? If during the commitment of trespass, another law is broken, is that how the FACE Act came into play? Would the 1st protect when in a non-public forum or under the charge of Trespass?

 

[chipbennett]

I agree for sure. Here comes the but! And to answer the question ahead of time, no I don't know or have a strongly held opinion other than I don't like the FACE Act law any more than I like a Hate Crime law or Hate Speech Law. I think they should all be done away with.

If the protest is taking place in a public forum. If it is taking place in a building and the protestor is asked to leave, at that point doesn't it become trespass? If during the commitment of trespass, another law is broken, is that how the FACE Act came into play? Would the 1st protect when in a non-public forum or under the charge of Trespass?

If they were on private property, and were trespassing, I see no problem with prosecuting them for trespassing.

That is an entirely separate question from the FACE Act. Trespassing laws don't violate constitutionally protected rights.

 

[JettaKnight]

The FACE Act is an unconstitutional violation of First Amendment-protected rights. The entire claim of illegality is based on the FACE Act.

Hopefully, this conviction begins the end of the FACE Act.

I'm not a fan of it, but you're going to have to explain how it's a 1A violation.


The FACE Act prohibits the following three things:

1. the use of physical force, threat of physical force, or physical obstruction to intentionally injure, intimidate, interfere with or attempt to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person who is obtaining an abortion,
2. the use of physical force, threat of physical force, or physical obstruction to intentionally injure, intimidate, interfere with or attempt to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person who is exercising or trying to exercise their First Amendment right of religious freedom at a place of religious worship,
3. the intentional damage or destruction of a reproductive health care facility or a place of worship.

Why do I have a 1A right to do any of those things?
Is there a particular case where you believe it was used as such?

I'm really not familiar with it that much.

 

[JettaKnight]

All of these points are true, yet irrelevant to the legal question.

Totally agree, I was merely clarified what I believe is a Chrisian response (which this thread is for).

 

[JettaKnight]

Here is a I think a clear case where the state is infringing on the Church's duty - to help the poor.

Churches Face Fines for Providing Warming Shelters During Winter Months

 

[JettaKnight]

If they were on private property, and were trespassing, I see no problem with prosecuting them for trespassing.

That is an entirely separate question from the FACE Act. Trespassing laws don't violate constitutionally protected rights.

One of the articles stated they were on the second floor of an office building and asked to leave by management.

So, couldn't this just be handled by a simple tresspassing rather than FACE? I would think so, like Foszoe said, FACE seems like another, "let's make some things even more illegal based on a protect class." (not a fan)

 

[chipbennett]

I'm not a fan of it, but you're going to have to explain how it's a 1A violation.


The FACE Act prohibits the following three things:

1. the use of physical force, threat of physical force, or physical obstruction to intentionally injure, intimidate, interfere with or attempt to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person who is obtaining an abortion,
2. the use of physical force, threat of physical force, or physical obstruction to intentionally injure, intimidate, interfere with or attempt to injure, intimidate or interfere with any person who is exercising or trying to exercise their First Amendment right of religious freedom at a place of religious worship,
3. the intentional damage or destruction of a reproductive health care facility or a place of worship.

Why do I have a 1A right to do any of those things?
Is there a particular case where you believe it was used as such?

I'm really not familiar with it that much.

I could also go with a 14th Amendment Equal Protection challenge. All of those things are already unlawful, without the FACE Act.

The devil is in the details, and how and against whom the law is enforced. See, for example, the treatment of Mark Houck.

 

[chipbennett]

Totally agree, I was merely clarified what I believe is a Chrisian response (which this thread is for).

I agree with you on that point. You and I probably closely align on what a more effective, Christlike approach would be.

 

[chipbennett]

One of the articles stated they were on the second floor of an office building and asked to leave by management.

So, couldn't this just be handled by a simple tresspassing rather than FACE? I would think so, like Foszoe said, FACE seems like another, "let's make some things even more illegal based on a protect class." (not a fan)

Yes, exactly!

 

[DragonGunner]

Operation Rescue was a movement of Christians who would either pray in front of abortion clinics or put their bodies to be arrested at the front doors of the abortion centers back in the 80' and 90's. Some of the top leaders were willing to take a stand and spend time in jail. The majority were arrested, fined and or charges later dropped. This was civil disobedience and trying to bring to light that abortion was murder....or is it? Being involved somewhat with this movement I was sad to see the church and many christians completely hard hearted about abortion. Church people many who were actually prochoice, others could care less if woman killed their babies, others even pastors literally saying where in the Bible is abortion wrong. If every christian had stood up and joined in by the thousands just like a football game I still believe politicians would of got off their butts and done some changes. But it didn't happen that way. I remember one rescue, where a woman showed up to abort her baby and saw a crowd of people being arrested for blocking the door. She asked what was happening and a prayer warrior and counselor told her why. She turned around and went home since the clinic had been closed. Later in time that same woman came back to the clinic and found the person she had talked to. She said that morning she came for a abortion, but afterwards thought these people were so concerned with this I had to think about what I was doing to my baby. They changed my mind and I'm keeping my baby, thank you and thank them. Proverbs 24:11 is a powerful scripture that was in the hearts. I will not judge these people in TN, I will ask what have I done, and not done.

 

[JettaKnight]

I could also go with a 14th Amendment Equal Protection challenge. All of those things are already unlawful, without the FACE Act.

The devil is in the details, and how and against whom the law is enforced. See, for example, the treatment of Mark Houck.

Pretty frightening stuff.

 

[JettaKnight]

I'm assuming this clinic is now closed; or at least not doing abortions, seeing that it's in TN.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Can you spot the false teacher?

 

[foszoe]

 

[JettaKnight]

Can you spot the false teacher?

Have you read the course? The After Party I haven't yet - just wondering if you have anything else than an X video.

I really don't know anything about Curtis Chang. But honestly he sounds... crazy.