Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[blain]

I listened to how he spoke and to the words he used. How he misled the listener to hear one thing(a fact) followed immediately by a statement that something else was known when it clearly is not. That is a tool used to use the listeners own brain into tricking them into the belief the latter statement to be just as true as the first. It is how propaganda works.

Would that be an example of George Orwell's "doublespeak"?
Are we seeing 1984 brought to life before our lying eyes?

 

[smokingman]

Would that be an example of George Orwell's "doublespeak"?
Are we seeing 1984 brought to life before our lying eyes?

Yes.
He does want the listener to think "known" means truth or reality. So in the same way double speak uses words to mean different things than they actually do yes.

If he had any facts to present other than the Swiss found explosive residue he did not present it.

He simply lead the listener into thinking he did,and then goes on to excuse the Swiss for not providing the information he has just led you to believe they had provide.

Your brain is tossed for a loop. He tells you this is the information provided,and then turns around and excuses the party he said provided it for not providing it. A doublespeak thought process. You can not believe both to be true at the same time,but can accept either to be true alone(the point of doublespeak).

The Swiss have not actually released any information publicly other than residue was found. Out of everything he said that is the only thing that can be proved a fact.

 

[Tombs]

Washington Post, 11-18-2022
Headline: "Sweden finds explosive traces at Nord Stream blast sites, confirms sabotage"
"European leaders pointed to Russia as the only actor with the technical capability and motivation to damage the Nord Stream pipelines with underwater explosions."

If Russia keeps it up, they'll false-flag themselves right out of the picture.
But that Putin is a wily old fox. He's calculating just the right moment when to STOP destroying his own assets.
Now that's some 4D chess in action!

I don't think you have a solid grasp of the nature of this conflict.

If Russia destroys the pipeline, nothing happens. They already control whether gas flows or not. It's in their best interest that it gets built and flows, especially as Europeans are facing energy shortages and potentially freezing to death... Especially when that constitutes a huge percentage of their economy... DURING A WAR.

Russia isn't that clever, and their military is mostly peasants yanked off the streets at gun point, being told to operate gear that is falling apart.

 

[smokingman]

I don't think you have a solid grasp of the nature of this conflict.

If Russia destroys the pipeline, nothing happens. They already control whether gas flows or not. It's in their best interest that it gets built and flows, especially as Europeans are facing energy shortages and potentially freezing to death(adding in they were making over 1 billion US dollars a day when it flowed)... Especially when that constitutes a huge percentage of their economy... DURING A WAR.

Russia isn't that clever, and their military is mostly peasants yanked off the streets at gun point, being told to operate gear that is falling apart.

Slight edit.
Russia can move resources and gas else where to other markets,but not in the volume they had on Nord 1 and 2 instantly. It will take quite awhile for them to recover the financial income loss. Though likely not as long as the west hopes as Turkey is the new junction point to Europe already,and the pipeline to China completed earlier this summer.

 

[DolomiteDave]

I don't think you have a solid grasp of the nature of this conflict.

If Russia destroys the pipeline, nothing happens. They already control whether gas flows or not. It's in their best interest that it gets built and flows, especially as Europeans are facing energy shortages and potentially freezing to death... Especially when that constitutes a huge percentage of their economy... DURING A WAR.

Russia isn't that clever, and their military is mostly peasants yanked off the streets at gun point, being told to operate gear that is falling apart.

Client of mine firmly believes the west did it. "It's a way of making Nato double down. No one can back out now to get Russian energy."
As far as Russias soldiers, It seems corrupt officials sold most of the equipment to airsofters or something. Videos out there of Russian soldiers being given Chinese airsoft replicas of their actual gear. Ive seen more Russian Zenitco parts stateside than I have in any of these videos coming out of Ukraine. And this is supposed to be the company that churns out parts all day for Russia's AK modernization program? They certainly aren't as capable as many folks once thought.

 

[Tombs]

Client of mine firmly believes the west did it. "It's a way of making Nato double down. No one can back out now to get Russian energy."
As far as Russias soldiers, It seems corrupt officials sold most of the equipment to airsofters or something. Videos out there of Russian soldiers being given Chinese airsoft replicas of their actual gear. Ive seen more Russian Zenitco parts stateside than I have in any of these videos coming out of Ukraine. And this is supposed to be the company that churns out parts all day for Russia's AK modernization program? They certainly aren't as capable as many folks once thought.

It could have been about anyone.

I think it's obvious who would gain the most leverage and would be desperate enough. That would be suspect number one for me. I wouldn't put the west at the top of the suspect list.

 

[smokingman]

Another 4.5 Billion sent just yesterday. 11/22/2022
This time from U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). The funds are approved by the state department and issued through our government accounts at the world bank. The transfer has likely already happened as I write this.

The United States Contributes $4.5 Billion to Support the Government of Ukraine | Press Release | U.S. Agency for International Development

The United States, through the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) and in coordination with the U.S. Department of the Treasury and the Department of State, is providing an additional $4.5 billion in direct budgetary support to the Government of Ukraine.

www.usaid.gov

 

[blain]

"The funding, which will help alleviate the acute budget deficit caused by Putin’s brutal war of aggression, was made possible with generous bipartisan support from Congress. The Government of Ukraine will receive the funding in two tranches before the end of 2022."

Why doesn't the Administration simply declare Ukraine a US Territory and Volodymyr Zelensky it's Governor?
We adopt Ukraine and start a fresh flow of funds to their government, Zelensky issues declaration that elections won't be held until everything settles down. Russia will be scared out and US has a new territory full of natural resources for the greater good.
It's a Win-Win for Everyone (except that meanie Putin)!

 

[KellyinAvon]

Wait til we have a humanitarian operation and a shooting war, where people shooting at (by proxy in our case) are on the same side in the humanitarian op.

I saw this in a Blue Flag (Theater-Level/Numbered Air Force/Air Forces Component Command/3-Star level) exercise at 12th Air Force... 22 years ago.

 

[88E30M50]

An interesting perspective

 

[DolomiteDave]

An interesting perspective

Very interesting when he brings up the nature of what are sending over to Ukraine (Equipment wise). I would like to hear more opinions on wether what he is saying is accurate about these systems (Javelins etc.) being considered surplus and slotted for decommissioning.

 

[smokingman]

Well it appears the USA is paying off Ukraine's prewar debts,not just funding the current war.

Ukraine had 56 billion in debt prior to the war. The IMF even stopped loaning them money as the debt was "unsustainable". They did at the start of the war give Ukraine 2 new loans as part of the emergency "food" assistance program at the IMF,but other than that had stopped all lending to Ukraine.

Enter the war and US tax payer. Ukraine paid the IMF 2 billion this quarter. Now they get a new shinny IMF loan program.

Most debtors of Ukraine have not paused debt collection. Given current reality,who do you think is actually paying those debts? You are(well your taxes and likely your children's future taxes).

The IMF,well they get a seat at the Ukrainian national bank(the Program Monitoring with Board Involvement (PMB),ie they control the central bank of Ukraine. It worked well for Libya didn't it? They have a PMB to) .

IMF and Ukrainian Authorities Reach Staff Level Agreement on Program Monitoring with Board Involvement

IMF and Ukrainian Authorities Reach Staff Level Agreement on Program Monitoring with Board Involvement

www.imf.org

 

[Timjoebillybob]

It involved 2 treaties,not just one. With Russia in control of 81% of Crimea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_Treaty_on_the_Status_and_Conditions_of_the_Black_Sea_Fleet (1997)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Pact (2010)

Say what? The treaties did not give Russia control of 81% of Crimea, it gave them 81% of the black sea fleet, and leasing rights to the navel base. If Russia had 81% control of Crimea why would they need to lease?

Minsk agreements - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bit of a history lesson for you.

Crimea: People and Territory before and after Annexation

While Crimea is likely to remain a point of conflict between Ukraine/the West and Russia, the return of the territory to the Ukrainian state is virtually impossible.

www.e-ir.info

In short Crimea had their own president even during the Soviet Union. From 1991-1995 during the fall and independence of many former Soviet states Crimea did in fact have referendums and declared independence. Before they were declared invalid by Ukraine they were in fact recognized by the UN and celebrated as another just another freed Soviet state...right up to 1995 when they allowed citizens to have joint citizenship with either Ukraine or Russia. Celebrations at the UN ended of course. Ukraine declared the President and the Crimean constitution invalid and with US backing had Crimean independence recognition reversed at the UN(not all of the UN,but most of the west no longer recognized independence with a few exceptions like Lithuania,Turkey, Russia,and a few other countries for a few years).
In 1997 Russia,NATO,Ukraine,and UN agreed to divide up Crimea with the Partition Treaty.

The partition treaty is in fact one of two treaties Zelenski invalidated before the 2014 Russian annexation of Crimea.

Now that's funny. Can you please explain just how Zelensky invalidated those treaties several years before he assumed office?

I see no further point in arguing about it.

I wonder why.

 

[BigRed]

"The funding, which will help alleviate the acute budget deficit caused by Putin’s brutal war of aggression, was made possible with generous bipartisan support from Congress. The Government of Ukraine will receive the funding in two tranches before the end of 2022."

Why doesn't the Administration simply declare Ukraine a US Territory and Volodymyr Zelensky it's Governor?
We adopt Ukraine and start a fresh flow of funds to their government, Zelensky issues declaration that elections won't be held until everything settles down. Russia will be scared out and US has a new territory full of natural resources for the greater good.
It's a Win-Win for Everyone (except that meanie Putin)!

Why doesn't the US simply mind it's own damn business?

 

[Tombs]

"The funding, which will help alleviate the acute budget deficit caused by Putin’s brutal war of aggression, was made possible with generous bipartisan support from Congress. The Government of Ukraine will receive the funding in two tranches before the end of 2022."

Why doesn't the Administration simply declare Ukraine a US Territory and Volodymyr Zelensky it's Governor?
We adopt Ukraine and start a fresh flow of funds to their government, Zelensky issues declaration that elections won't be held until everything settles down. Russia will be scared out and US has a new territory full of natural resources for the greater good.
It's a Win-Win for Everyone (except that meanie Putin)!

lol I felt that way about Afghanistan and Iraq.

If you're going to this much trouble, you should have clay to expand the empire with. Otherwise, mind your own business.

Ukraine is shaping up to be another example of suicidal altruism. If they want aid they should have to provide us with something to make it worth it, like clay.

 

[smokingman]

Wow. Steal billions...Appear with US Treasury head and Zelenski.

Howls Of Outrage After New York Times Confirms SBF To Speak Alongside Zelenskyy, Yellen | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[Libertarian01]

Why doesn't the US simply mind it's own damn business?

This is one of the places where I believe we are in disagreement. In my opinion the United States IS minding it's own business.

With possible Russian plans not to take Ukraine but move through it to take parts of Poland and Romania. In Peter Zeihan's analysis Russia is trying to plug various geographic locations with Russian troops to defend itself against possible invasion. All of their previous military aggression since Putin took power reinforces the accuracy of this analysis.

If true, this would bring Russia into direct conflict with NATO which would then compel the United States to engage directly with Russian forces. This would greatly increase the chances of a nuclear exchange.

...Which is why I believe it sure as heck is OUR business to avoid such a confrontation. It's like killing cancer. You want to detect it at stage zero (0) and kill it there. We didn't do that. We did nothing when Russia invaded Georgia. I don't know what stage we're at now, but we sure don't want to get to stage four (4) of direct conflict.

The 2021 budget passed in 2020 by Pres Trump was about $6.8 trillion. At a total of $104 billion spread of this year and next, this is about 1.5% of our budget. For us this is almost nothing. For less than 2% of our budget we are destroying FOREVER one (1) of only two (2) powers on earth that could ever cause us any real concern.

The good side of destroying Russia this way is that it shows China, the only other near power, what will happen to it if it tries to invade anyone. This thus deters another conflict before it even occurs.

Regards and Happy Thanksgiving,

Doug

 

[BigRed]

This is one of the places where I believe we are in disagreement. In my opinion the United States IS minding it's own business.

With possible Russian plans not to take Ukraine but move through it to take parts of Poland and Romania. In Peter Zeihan's analysis Russia is trying to plug various geographic locations with Russian troops to defend itself against possible invasion. All of their previous military aggression since Putin took power reinforces the accuracy of this analysis.

If true, this would bring Russia into direct conflict with NATO which would then compel the United States to engage directly with Russian forces. This would greatly increase the chances of a nuclear exchange.

...Which is why I believe it sure as heck is OUR business to avoid such a confrontation. It's like killing cancer. You want to detect it at stage zero (0) and kill it there. We didn't do that. We did nothing when Russia invaded Georgia. I don't know what stage we're at now, but we sure don't want to get to stage four (4) of direct conflict.

The 2021 budget passed in 2020 by Pres Trump was about $6.8 trillion. At a total of $104 billion spread of this year and next, this is about 1.5% of our budget. For us this is almost nothing. For less than 2% of our budget we are destroying FOREVER one (1) of only two (2) powers on earth that could ever cause us any real concern.

The good side of destroying Russia this way is that it shows China, the only other near power, what will happen to it if it tries to invade anyone. This thus deters another conflict before it even occurs.

Regards and Happy Thanksgiving,

Doug

You are correct. It is an area we are in disagreement.

My sincere best wishes for a great day of giving thanks.

 

[Leadeye]

Well it appears the USA is paying off Ukraine's prewar debts,not just funding the current war.

Ukraine had 56 billion in debt prior to the war. The IMF even stopped loaning them money as the debt was "unsustainable". They did at the start of the war give Ukraine 2 new loans as part of the emergency "food" assistance program at the IMF,but other than that had stopped all lending to Ukraine.

Enter the war and US tax payer. Ukraine paid the IMF 2 billion this quarter. Now they get a new shinny IMF loan program.

Most debtors of Ukraine have not paused debt collection. Given current reality,who do you think is actually paying those debts? You are(well your taxes and likely your children's future taxes).

The IMF,well they get a seat at the Ukrainian national bank(the Program Monitoring with Board Involvement (PMB),ie they control the central bank of Ukraine. It worked well for Libya didn't it? They have a PMB to) .

IMF and Ukrainian Authorities Reach Staff Level Agreement on Program Monitoring with Board Involvement

IMF and Ukrainian Authorities Reach Staff Level Agreement on Program Monitoring with Board Involvement

www.imf.org

I have to ask who Ukraine owes that money to, that's who is really getting the US taxpayer cash.

Always follow the money

 

[Expat]

Back in July, Zelensky said we owed him $750 Billion...

Zelenskyy Arrogantly Presents Western World with the Bill: $750 Billion and Counting

'The reconstruction of Ukraine is not a local project, is not a project of one nation, but a common task of the entire democratic world.'

www.westernjournal.com