Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[actaeon277]

If the NAFO people were consistent, yeah they probably would.

Not really.

The Japanese attacked us, therefore, we go after them.
People were killed because of defense against the Japanese, and we still went after the Japanese, NOT the US Navy.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Not really.

The Japanese attacked us, therefore, we go after them.
People were killed because of defense against the Japanese, and we still went after the Japanese, NOT the US Navy.

Well, there's also the issue of NATO not even being in existence until after WWII...

 

[actaeon277]

Well, there's also the issue of NATO not even being in existence until after WWII...

Which is not the issue...


I say, even knowing what you're doing.

 

[DadSmith]

USA's Military Empire: A Visual Database - World BEYOND War

The USA maintains a massive network of foreign military bases around the world. Some are on land occupied as spoils of war. Most are maintained through collaborations with governments, many of them oppressive. Learn more about these bases. #WorldBEYONDWar

worldbeyondwar.org

Another reason our military is always low on funds. Shut down half of these bases, and leave.

 

[BugI02]

I'm loony? You're the one swallowing what Biden's intel people are giving you.

Was it a blue and yellow missle with "definitely not from Russia and absolutely a Ukranian S300" written on it with a Sharpie?

Does what you think is rational thinking believe that the Russians would sell the Ukrainians (or anyone else who might provide them to Ukraine) fully capable frontline versions of the S300? Given that there are likely differences in the export product, that they have wreckage and they have extensive information on the S300s in Ukraine's possession (by virtue of those advisers) might they not be able to use such differences to determine whose launchers the missiles came from?

Also, please delineate what Ukrainian targets the Russians were aiming for such that an overshoot would land in Poland

 

[actaeon277]

Does what you think is rational thinking believe that the Russians would sell the Ukrainians (or anyone else who might provide them to Ukraine) fully capable frontline versions od the S300? Given that there are likely differences in the export product, that they have wreckage and they have extensive information on the S300s in Ukraines possession (by virtue of those advisers) might they not be able to use such differences to determine whose launchers the missiles came from?

Also, please delineate what Ukrainian targets the Russians were aiming for such that an overshoot would land in Poland

Not all malfunctions are overshoots.
This is not a claim that the Russians, or the Ukraines fired the missile.

Just that missiles are not artillery, or bullets.
They change path.

 

[BugI02]

And as for the wrong direction. Even if you have a 95 percent accuracy, there's still that 5 percent error.

Besides which the missile may have lost lock AFTER maneuvering to intercept, so its eventual direction of flight would not necessarily be its initial launch vector

 

[actaeon277]

Besides which the. missile may have lost lock AFTER maneuvering to intercept, so its eventual direction of flight would not necessarily be its initial launch vector

I'm trying to find pics/videos of missile loss of flight control.
I've seen lots.

And of course, now I can't find any.

 

[actaeon277]

 

[actaeon277]

A lot of the damage during the Tripoli attack (Reagan) was caused by Libya's own anti-aircraft fire.

 

[Tombs]

Well, there's also the issue of NATO not even being in existence until after WWII...

NATO is not NAFO.

I suggest you google it.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

NATO is not NAFO.

I suggest you google it.

Okay.

The North Atlantic Fellas Organization is an Internet meme and social media movement dedicated to countering Russian propaganda and disinformation about the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.

NAFO (group) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How is that relevant to the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor?

 

[BugI02]

I'm trying to find pics/videos of missile loss of flight control.
I've seen lots.

And of course, now I can't find any.

D5 motor fail

 

[smokingman]

USA's Military Empire: A Visual Database - World BEYOND War

The USA maintains a massive network of foreign military bases around the world. Some are on land occupied as spoils of war. Most are maintained through collaborations with governments, many of them oppressive. Learn more about these bases. #WorldBEYONDWar

worldbeyondwar.org

Another reason our military is always low on funds. Shut down half of these bases, and leave.

Pentagon Fails 5th Consecutive Audit Amid Ukraine Oversight Concerns | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[smokingman]

Just a reminder of the other large proxy war going on.

The US-led international coalition forces operating in northeastern Syria intend to establish a new military base in their controlled areas in the countryside of Raqqa. Local sources said that a convoy of US forces, including several armored military vehicles, arrived in Raqqa city as part of preparations to install a new base in the area.

The US army and international coalition occupy at least 28 declared military sites in Syria, distributed over three provinces, mainly Hasakah (17 sites), Deir Ezzor (nine locations), and Homs (two areas).


The UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) released photographs showing the construction of a new base near Al-Raqqa Bridge on the Euphrates River, south of the city. The distribution of Washington’s illegal bases resembles the cordon surrounding the sources of oil and gas located east of the Euphrates River, representing most of Syria’s underground wealth.

Nonetheless, the daily bombing prompted Washington to send massive military and logistical reinforcements aboard hundreds of trucks that crossed from Iraq into the US bases in Deir Ezzor, Hasakah, and Raqqa.


According to the SOHR, US troops recently established another military post in Naqara village, just three kilometers from Qamishli in the northeastern province of Hasakah.

US To Establish Another New Military Base In Northeast Syria

USSA News. Breaking conservative news.

ussanews.com

Of course ISIS tends to depart from many of those bases to launch attacks. According to British based SOHR(The Syrian Observatory For Human Rights ).

IS*IS attack | SDF member injured east of Deir Ezzor - The Syrian Observatory For Human Rights

Deir Ezzor province: Unidentified gunmen on a motorcycle, believed to be ISIS members, targeted an SDF member in front of Jadidah Bakara hospital in SDF-held areas in eastern Deir Ezzor countryside, injuring him. The SDF member was taken to Al-Hasakah hospitals for treatment. SOHR has documented...

www.syriahr.com

 

[Libertarian01]

What a bunch of BS.

I know... Facts are horrible things. Context? Don't want to worry about that, it might make you think...

And thinking about this, you do realize that with this comes the cheapest energy prices in the developed world. This makes the USA supremely competitive for manufacturing to be rebuilt here.

You see this conflict as about Russia.
I see this conflict to be about the USA wanting control of the world.

You point out the "virtuous defense of its acknowledged sovereign territory" as if we did not overthrow an elected government in Ukraine because it had Russian support to create in your mind(and many others) this democratic sovereign territory with just one political party(founded just to get Zelenski into the presidents office) .

You also fail to recognize things like Zelenski cancelling the lease of Crimea to Russia(that was already paid for). Ignore the UN treaties which made the separatist areas self governing(as they had been since before the fall of the soviet union,and stayed that way after the fall) that Ukraine ignored and instead shelled and bombed the cities for 8+ years.

The US has supported separatist regions before,when it was seen as a benefit to us(Yugoslav wars from 1993-2017 ). No mention of "virtuous defense of acknowledged sovereign territory" during that,as we were able to pick who retained power.

Am I an isolationist. No. I believe much as our founders did.

"Observe good faith and justice toward all nations. Cultivate peace and harmony with all. ... In the execution of such a plan nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations and passionate attachments for others should be excluded, and that in place of them just and amicable feelings toward all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges toward another an habitual hatred or an habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur."
George Washington

I do not see how crippling most of Europe,destroying our own currency(the moment we restricted the use to preferred counties), and spending vast sums of capitol and resources on a conflict that has raged in some ways for more than 900 years is in the interest of the USA.

I see this conflict about preserving the peace and stability of Europe, the United States, and the world in the long run. Stopping Russia's unproved invasion of Ukraine IN UKRAINE keeps them from engaging with us.

You grossly overreach regarding any leases. Ukraine did extend the lease on Russia's NAVAL BASE for 25 years to extend to 2042, but when Russia invades another country I don't expect that country to continue to support Russian military bases. Duh...

The UN has not recognized any separatist regions inside of Ukrainian territory. Only Russia did that.

The United States has supported separatist regions in the past. And...? This time we are not and we are pushing the Russians out of those separatist regions. Bad USA?

We are not crippling Europe in any way. We are not crippling our own currency in any way.

PS - You still haven't retracted your accusation that I have used doublethink on this isue.

We rank 42nd of 166 countries.

Yes we do. Who here wants to live in #1 - #41??? Although thinking about it Argentina and Brazil could have some seriously good looking latina women.

Regards,

Doug

 

[actaeon277]

Is the 'Ukraine' separatist?
It was not initially part of Russia.
They took it.

 

[DragonGunner]

I know... Facts are horrible things. Context? Don't want to worry about that, it might make you think...

And thinking about this, you do realize that with this comes the cheapest energy prices in the developed world. This makes the USA supremely competitive for manufacturing to be rebuilt here.



I see this conflict about preserving the peace and stability of Europe, the United States, and the world in the long run. Stopping Russia's unproved invasion of Ukraine IN UKRAINE keeps them from engaging with us.

You grossly overreach regarding any leases. Ukraine did extend the lease on Russia's NAVAL BASE for 25 years to extend to 2042, but when Russia invades another country I don't expect that country to continue to support Russian military bases. Duh...

The UN has not recognized any separatist regions inside of Ukrainian territory. Only Russia did that.

The United States has supported separatist regions in the past. And...? This time we are not and we are pushing the Russians out of those separatist regions. Bad USA?

We are not crippling Europe in any way. We are not crippling our own currency in any way.

PS - You still haven't retracted your accusation that I have used doublethink on this isue.


Yes we do. Who here wants to live in #1 - #41??? Although thinking about it Argentina and Brazil could have some seriously good looking latina women.

Regards,

Doug

I repeat myself.

 

[smokingman]

You grossly overreach regarding any leases. Ukraine did extend the lease on Russia's NAVAL BASE for 25 years to extend to 2042, but when Russia invades another country I don't expect that country to continue to support Russian military bases. Duh...

It involved 2 treaties,not just one. With Russia in control of 81% of Crimea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_Treaty_on_the_Status_and_Conditions_of_the_Black_Sea_Fleet (1997)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Pact (2010)

The UN has not recognized any separatist regions inside of Ukrainian territory. Only Russia did that.

Minsk agreements - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bit of a history lesson for you.

Crimea: People and Territory before and after Annexation

While Crimea is likely to remain a point of conflict between Ukraine/the West and Russia, the return of the territory to the Ukrainian state is virtually impossible.

www.e-ir.info

In short Crimea had their own president even during the Soviet Union. From 1991-1995 during the fall and independence of many former Soviet states Crimea did in fact have referendums and declared independence. Before they were declared invalid by Ukraine they were in fact recognized by the UN and celebrated as another just another freed Soviet state...right up to 1995 when they allowed citizens to have joint citizenship with either Ukraine or Russia. Celebrations at the UN ended of course. Ukraine declared the President and the Crimean constitution invalid and with US backing had Crimean independence recognition reversed at the UN(not all of the UN,but most of the west no longer recognized independence with a few exceptions like Lithuania,Turkey, Russia,and a few other countries for a few years).
In 1997 Russia,NATO,Ukraine,and UN agreed to divide up Crimea with the Partition Treaty.

The partition treaty is in fact one of two treaties Zelenski invalidated before the 2014 Russian annexation of Crimea.


I see no further point in arguing about it.

 

[BigRed]

Have gun.
Will travel.