Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[ditcherman]

This a quality post. Where's the rep button?

You have to give him hearts.
No homo.

 

[DadSmith]

I would phrase it “Doing close or as fast as you can with Irons” in a close 15 yards and in. In the Crawl walk run I’d say the 2,500 would be at the Mall Walker stage getting ready to maybe run. I Used RDS on Rifles for a couple Decades the biggest issue and it was not an issue as your bringing it up to 4 contact points. Handgun with just 2 can be a little different depending on if your a locked out or elbows (natural extension) slightly bent shooter.

Most Folks have the target focus down So for most getting the presentation and grip down so the dot is somewhere in the screen is the biggest learning curve “as quick” as Irons JMHE

My biggest problem was when I bring it up out of the holster and on target I am bringing it up a little to high probably because my muscle memory is going for the iron sights, I then have to drop it down and that is where I lose time.
It's just natural to bring it up to where I see the iron sights and pull the trigger after around 40 years of using iron sights.
It's just going to have to do a lot of reps as said above to get new muscle memory.

 

[DadSmith]

So you think with shake awake an annual battery change is still sufficient for a edc?

To tell you I have experience in RDS to give you an opinion would be a stretch. I only have experience with shake awake prismatic optics on rifles. They seem to last a year. Keep a spare battery or two in the grip and you'll have spares when needed if away from home.

 

[jwamplerusa]

Transitioning to the dot as an iron sight shooter can be tougher than many think. You have to overcome years of sight-alignment and front sight focus that have been drilled into your brain. But I believe that using the dot properly can actually make you a better iron sight shooter because it forces proper presentation and provides immediate feedback to the shooter as a diagnostic tool.

This needs qouted for the truth it conveys. It took a long time and a lot of rounds, (YMMV, I am a slow learner...) but once you reach the point where you can control the dot through recoil and use it as a diagnostic tool for your grip it is a game changer. I know through imperical evidence that I am now a better irons shooter across my arsenal, and I attribute the improvement to the work I have put into learning use of red dot pistol mounted optics. (Note: I am not saying I am good, rather that I have improved from where I was three years ago.)

Watch the Aaron Cowan Sage Dynamics RDS series. It will help.

 

[ECS686]

My biggest problem was when I bring it up out of the holster and on target I am bringing it up a little to high probably because my muscle memory is going for the iron sights, I then have to drop it down and that is where I lose time.
It's just natural to bring it up to where I see the iron sights and pull the trigger after around 40 years of using iron sights.
It's just going to have to do a lot of reps as said above to get new muscle memory.

That was one of my learning curve issues as well. It is also one of the (I believe him anyway) valid criticisms against RDS pistols from folks like Paul Howe. You shouldn’t have to learn a different drawing technique to make it work.

I find the tighter grip and espousing your pinky helps being the dot somewhere into the screen.

The other issue it seems is a lot of shooters don’t realize the dot doesn’t have to be centered or everything symmetrical like with irons. You see that when they are doing the figure 8 fishing move.

 

[scout5]

For me it's the KISS route. If a dot or other optic is the simplest for the shooter so be it. for me it's not. After 4 decades without one I'm going to keep it that way. I like the dots etc. but 4 decades is now habit and habits are tough to change. However I have hunted with handguns with optics not a dot but cross hairs.

 

[ditcherman]

For me it's the KISS route. If a dot or other optic is the simplest for the shooter so be it. for me it's not. After 4 decades without one I'm going to keep it that way. I like the dots etc. but 4 decades is now habit and habits are tough to change. However I have hunted with handguns with optics not a dot but cross hairs.

It would be an interesting thing to hear from someone with handgun scope experience and RDS experience, and hear the comparisons. Never thought of that before, but I suppose the scoped handgun market is so thin, maybe specialized, that the two don’t cross paths.

 

[breakingcontact]

I have a very nicely set up RDS Glock and taking a class with it I definitely see the benefits. That being said...none of my carry guns have an RDS.

 

[kaveman]

I'm new to dots on pistols but they're all I've focused on this yr. Have five of them now,....all M&Ps and I've learned plenty. The first thing that I've learned is that I'm not going to buy another optics ready pistol,.....all the optics ready systems suck. It's not the manufacturers fault. The problem is that there are almost a dozen different footprints used by the various RDS manufacturers and the gun manufacturer has no idea which sight you plan to use,.......so they develop a cut and system that doesn't fit ANY dot and then they give you a stack of different plates to adapt to all the different footprints. And since they have to include seven or more plates to cover the field, the plates are all cheap junk. And what you end up with is a dot,.....that sits higher than needed,.....on a crappy plate,......with two interfaces instead of one,.....and stressed screws that are longer than they should be. And then you need suppressor height sights if you want to co-witness.

Don't do any of that. Pick the M&P 2.0 in whatever configuration you like and send it out to be milled for the sight you like. It'll sit lower, utilize the original height sights(although often you'll be forced to recut the dovetail and have to use a Glock rear in its place)and most importantly,......it'll stay in place and never move. Your RDS sight line will also be much closer to the original iron sight line as well. Now you can tumble your gun in a cement mixer and not have to worry about the RDS.

Milling doesn't need to be expensive. These guys do it for $75 or $110 if you need a recut dovetail added.

OPTIC CUTS | DP Custom Works

www.dpcustomworksllc.com

I like Holosun and am perfectly happy with the open emitter 507c. 509T is available if you have to have enclosed emitter. Both are available with the ACSS Vulcan reticle which makes transitioning to the RDS pretty simple. Maybe not initially as quick as the irons you're used to, but close. You will never 'not find the dot'. I prefer green which is also an option on the 507C but not the 509T.

One thing to be aware of,......everybody mills for the 507C(RMR footprint). Not many mill for the 509T yet and for some reason, the 509T w/ACSS reticle has a different footprint than the standard 509T.

M&P 2.0, mill the slide for RMR, mount Green 507C w/ACSS,....enjoy. That's all I'm gonna do going forward.

 

[armalitesheepdog]

Nope. Not me
As long as I can ring 10" steel at 25 yards I'm sticking to my irons.
And yes I am a old Fudd daddy.
Not against them in the least. Just not for me

 

[ditcherman]

I'm new to dots on pistols but they're all I've focused on this yr. Have five of them now,....all M&Ps and I've learned plenty. The first thing that I've learned is that I'm not going to buy another optics ready pistol,.....all the optics ready systems suck. It's not the manufacturers fault. The problem is that there are almost a dozen different footprints used by the various RDS manufacturers and the gun manufacturer has no idea which sight you plan to use,.......so they develop a cut and system that doesn't fit ANY dot and then they give you a stack of different plates to adapt to all the different footprints. And since they have to include seven or more plates to cover the field, the plates are all cheap junk. And what you end up with is a dot,.....that sits higher than needed,.....on a crappy plate,......with two interfaces instead of one,.....and stressed screws that are longer than they should be. And then you need suppressor height sights if you want to co-witness.

Don't do any of that. Pick the M&P 2.0 in whatever configuration you like and send it out to be milled for the sight you like. It'll sit lower, utilize the original height sights(although often you'll be forced to recut the dovetail and have to use a Glock rear in its place)and most importantly,......it'll stay in place and never move. Your RDS sight line will also be much closer to the original iron sight line as well. Now you can tumble your gun in a cement mixer and not have to worry about the RDS.

Milling doesn't need to be expensive. These guys do it for $75 or $110 if you need a recut dovetail added.

OPTIC CUTS | DP Custom Works

www.dpcustomworksllc.com

I like Holosun and am perfectly happy with the open emitter 507c. 509T is available if you have to have enclosed emitter. Both are available with the ACSS Vulcan reticle which makes transitioning to the RDS pretty simple. Maybe not initially as quick as the irons you're used to, but close. You will never 'not find the dot'. I prefer green which is also an option on the 507C but not the 509T.

One thing to be aware of,......everybody mills for the 507C(RMR footprint). Not many mill for the 509T yet and for some reason, the 509T w/ACSS reticle has a different footprint than the standard 509T.

M&P 2.0, mill the slide for RMR, mount Green 507C w/ACSS,....enjoy. That's all I'm gonna do going forward.

I hear your frustration, but there are other options.
Sig P320/226/229 optics cut will fit Romeo1pro and therefore Deltapoint Pro, so super solid mount there. Not sure about the p365??
Not even all the Romeos are the same footprint, which seems ridiculous.

I believe there are some guns directly milled for the Trijicon rmr, which is a great choice.

It sounds like you are like me, zero to 5 in a year or so. Glad I’m not alone, my wife would want me in a support group if she knew.

 

[cg21]

It sounds like you are like me, zero to 5 in a year or so. Glad I’m not alone, my wife would want me in a support group if she new.

we are here for you.

 

[kaveman]

I hear your frustration, but there are other options.
Sig P320/226/229 optics cut will fit Romeo1pro and therefore Deltapoint Pro, so super solid mount there. Not sure about the p365??
Not even all the Romeos are the same footprint, which seems ridiculous.

I believe there are some guns directly milled for the Trijicon rmr, which is a great choice.

It sounds like you are like me, zero to 5 in a year or so. Glad I’m not alone, my wife would want me in a support group if she knew.

Oh, I'm not frustrated. I'm just about six months and seven grand in and have figured out what I'm comfortable with. Holosun with RMR footprint is the only thing for me as at least at this moment, that's the only way to get the ACSS reticle. Along with the pistols I've also accumulated eight of the Holosuns and fifteen Olight WMLs so I'm still building up the arsenal. Still have a couple of M&Ps to send in for milling at little cost and then I'm almost done. Don't really want to start all over again accumulating SIGs. If I get to that point I'll just convince some machinist to cut some 3rd Gen Smiths,......I've still got buckets of those and that would get me back to shooting guns I really like. Blasphemy maybe, but I have spare slides for most models of Gen3 S&Ws.

Anyone know of a smith doing RMR cuts on the Gen3s? 5946, 3953 etc?

 

[Born2vette]

Oh, I'm not frustrated. I'm just about six months and seven grand in and have figured out what I'm comfortable with. Holosun with RMR footprint is the only thing for me as at least at this moment, that's the only way to get the ACSS reticle. Along with the pistols I've also accumulated eight of the Holosuns and fifteen Olight WMLs so I'm still building up the arsenal. Still have a couple of M&Ps to send in for milling at little cost and then I'm almost done. Don't really want to start all over again accumulating SIGs. If I get to that point I'll just convince some machinist to cut some 3rd Gen Smiths,......I've still got buckets of those and that would get me back to shooting guns I really like. Blasphemy maybe, but I have spare slides for most models of Gen3 S&Ws.

Anyone know of a smith doing RMR cuts on the Gen3s? 5946, 3953 etc?

Can check with @AllenM

 

[Dean C.]

Agreed with above, direct mount is best mount. Which also reminds me I really need to order the cowhitness plate set for my Walther, sits a bit lower and gives you BUIS. Now to be honest going to a dedicated plate system is sometimes a good option, even though I went direct mount with my Staccato. I would not hesitate to use a Dawson plate to say eventually mount an ACRO P-2 should battery life actually improve as I like the enclosed emitter concept.

 

[2AOK]

Apologies, I wrote that on the phone.

Try this link

Feedback on Holosun 509T mounting, to M&P C.O.R.E. interface

I posted a question here regarding enclosed red dots. I have reached a decision, and so the next question I am posing is this: Does anyone have direct experience mounting a Holosun 509T to a Smith and Wesson M&P 9 2.0 C.O.R.E mounting interface? My understanding is the M&P C.O.R.E pistols...

www.indianagunowners.com

No, the compact is the original non-C.O.R.E. 4 in pistol. This link is a DP micro, https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1023057024?pid=753849
It replaced the rear sight, and acts as one. It's not for everyone, but I like it.

C&H makes a series of adapter plates for optics ready pistols. Largely in lieu of the plastic adapters that some OEMs ship (cough, S&W, cough). https://chpws.com/product-tag/smith-wesson-mp/?CHPWS=1&pa_model=m2-0&really_curr_tax=410-product_tag

The C&H plate was used to save the 5 inch Pro Series.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Current S&W optics-ready pistols appear to use the same plastic plates detailed in your saga.

My budget for pistol optics would not accommodate the Holosun you chose. I'm not sure what optic I'd purchase, or whether any of the plastic S&W mounting plates would fit it. Per your informative thread, I think it's a bad idea for me to purchase an S&W optics-ready pistol at this point.

A recent contributor to your saga thread mentioned a source that will mill an existing slide for a preferred optic at a cost of $100ish. At that rate, it makes sense to purchase an original design S&W pistol (non-optics) and have it milled, once I determine "the right optic" (which would be another can of worms).

I hate to hear of S&W's TERRIBLE response to your problem. Might just avoid S&W at that rate...

 

[2AOK]

BTW, there's a really good thread on this topic here.

New to the carry optics game...

I was gonna wait until I got old and could no longer see the iron sights on my pistols to go to the red dot sight. Then some circumstances changed, when I upgraded my carry gun. The new gun was a MOS version. I thought the MOS slot would be great for when I got old and would just stay covered...

www.indianagunowners.com

Thanks. I'll read it over dinner. =D

 

[2AOK]

I ended up putting it on my 44mag revolver for hunting.
RDS are much more accurate at longer ranges than iron sights and are faster at long ranges. I found that out when I tried to learn to use one on my ccw. 30+ yards the RDS is much more accurate, and faster than iron sights. So I had to decide on keeping the rds on, or taking it off.
I decided for self defense situations the majority are 7yds or less statistically speaking.
Out to 25yds I was self defense accurate and much faster without the rds, plus I reasoned what if the rds failed being its electronic, or I forgot to put a fresh battery in when needed yet another possible error on my part.
So I chose to take it off.
I have Micro rds on several rifles for backup or cqb situations. So they are definitely useful.

That's pretty much how I see it, too. I think a red dot on a rifle works well out to about 100 yards. Elisjsha Dicken took out that mall shooter at 40 yards with a handgun (haven't heard any details regarding his CCW rig yet). I doubt that I could do what he did using open sights (unless I advance before opening fire). So yeah, I'd love to have a red dot on my pistol for that scenario. =O

 

[2AOK]

View attachment 217448
And then go back a page to clear it.

THANK YOU.
I hate to think about how long I looked and how many times I tried and failed. Only in America could a guy like me have access to firearms.

 

[2AOK]

You don’t know what you don’t know, and it’s hard to explain but once you experience it, most people will get it.

Why couldn’t point shooting skill be applied even if there’s a dot on the gun?

Point shooting doesn't involve looking at your sights. It's instinctive aiming based on muscle memory resulting from lots and lots of practice (and natural talent in some cases, I expect)

My main question for you however; where are you getting this idea that 5 shots in and your a miracle worker (or however you put it)?

Yeah, that's just an impression I got from watching YouTube vids. It seems that some new shooters really can consistently shoot accurately after a few tries with the red dot. But we're talking about slow, steady, aimed fire...one shot at a time.

I have a red dot on a rifle and love it. I'm just not so sure about pistols, and based on the aforementioned S&W vs. Holoson fiasco, I'm thinking now might not be a good time to buy into the red dot approach.