Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[NHT3]

I have some untested theories on how to get someone up to speed pretty quickly (seemed to work well for the Chinese ladies) but wouldn't want to charge for a class unless I felt I was improving performance of students.. Possibly I can talk the owner at Parabellum into fronting the classroom and a little range time for 2 or 3 guinea pigs to see how well my theories pan out. If I can arrange it I'll put something up on the Parabellum forum about when I can do it. If it works out I'll set up a class for a reasonable fee and see if it goes.

 

[MCgrease08]

Another mention of the red dot NOT being the panacea it's purported to be. Been watching YouTube review vids as I mount my quest for a new handgun. Everything suggests that the red dot optic makes shooting as easy as "falling off a rock."

Perversly, I'm glad to hear from guys who find it sort of unnatural (at first, anyway).
Thanks

Red dots are faster to learn for new shooters who don't have lots of reps with iron sights.

The presentation with irons is different and I found that I had to relearn my draw and sight picture. With irons, shooters tend to draw and start with muzzle up and focus on the front sight, then bring the rear sights up to meet the front sight. With a dot, I draw and bring the slide parallel to the ground before it gets into my line of sight then "ride the escalator" up to my eyeline. Once the dot is in the window and on target, it's an acceptable placement. Press trigger.

 

[MCgrease08]

BTW, there's a really good thread on this topic here.

New to the carry optics game...

I was gonna wait until I got old and could no longer see the iron sights on my pistols to go to the red dot sight. Then some circumstances changed, when I upgraded my carry gun. The new gun was a MOS version. I thought the MOS slot would be great for when I got old and would just stay covered...

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[BoilerWes]

I will add this…my initial foray into red dots is a delta point on a SBR HD type rifle. For me the learning curve on the carbine has been faster than pistol. As several have mentioned…the presentation is different…working on it.

 

[DadSmith]

They are not for everyone, and I had to spend a shitload of time early during the covid lockdowns working on my presentation. Now I only see the dot, I would also wager starting out on the DPP with it's bigger window also helped. Plus almost all of my pistols have roughly the same grip angle at this point so presentation is uniform.

I ended up putting it on my 44mag revolver for hunting.
RDS are much more accurate at longer ranges than iron sights and are faster at long ranges. I found that out when I tried to learn to use one on my ccw. 30+ yards the RDS is much more accurate, and faster than iron sights. So I had to decide on keeping the rds on, or taking it off.
I decided for self defense situations the majority are 7yds or less statistically speaking.
Out to 25yds I was self defense accurate and much faster without the rds, plus I reasoned what if the rds failed being its electronic, or I forgot to put a fresh battery in when needed yet another possible error on my part.
So I chose to take it off.
I have Micro rds on several rifles for backup or cqb situations. So they are definitely useful.

 

[MCgrease08]

I reasoned what if the rds failed being its electronic, or I forgot to put a fresh battery in when needed yet another possible error on my part.

Take a red dot pistol class and you'll learn how to overcome a missing red dot or dead optic.

For starters, you should have back up suppressor height iron sights, which ironically is what started this whole thread. Second, you can easily use the frame of the optic body itself to aim. It's honestly not that complicated.

 

[DadSmith]

Take a red dot pistol class and you'll learn how to overcome a missing red dot or dead optic.

For starters, you should have back up suppressor height iron sights, which ironically is what started this whole thread. Second, you can easily use the frame of the optic body itself to aim. It's honestly not that complicated.

Yes I figured that out when practicing with it.
I just like iron sights more, and I'm much faster with them out to 25yds, 30+ the RDS takes over for speed and accuracy in my experience.
I should get me another rds and put it on a pistol that isn't my ccw to learn with. Thay way it isn't on my ccw while I'm learning how to use it better and faster. Once I get to where I'm as fast as I am with iron sights I can put one on my ccw.
I should have thought about this before.
I do need to get taller sights that would definitely make me feel better about an rds on my ccw.

 

[ECS686]

For anyone entertaining the idea of doing a RDS I would recommend taking a class from a Reputable Vetted Instructor. I have been an agency instructor through FLETC for years. I took it upon myself to do a Handgun Combative's MRDS class with Dave Spaulding for a couple reasons.

1 Teaching the private sector I see more and more RDS show up and I wanted to take at least one relevant class to learn the right way.

2 (sort of part of 1) I won’t teach off of “Theory” or a YouTube video. Just what I have carried and or used why how etc

That said I sometimes run a Glock 34 Gen 5 with a Leupold DPP getting acclimated and ran that set up in Dave’s Class. As of now I am not a big proponent of handgun RDS.

Dave Spaulding said in class it takes 2,500 rounds Minimum to get halfway close to where someone with years of irons are with irons. I believe that to be in the low end.

Yes there are some Phenomenal RDS shooters but to be one you really have to be committed. I have been doing Agency or Professional Classes since 1986 so as of yet not sure RDS make me a better shooter.

 

[ditcherman]

How do I cancel a reply I'm making to a comment?
I start to write the reply, but then decide not to.
Can't get rid of the Reply text window.
Can't find a CANCEL button for it.
=O

And then go back a page to clear it.

 

[ditcherman]

I've seen that with laser sights (red dot projected onto the actual target) but am not sure how a red dot optic would help...

You don’t know what you don’t know, and it’s hard to explain but once you experience it, most people will get it.

My Dad was, early in his career, an FBI field agent. He could point shoot like nobody's business! I think THAT SKILL trump's the benefits of red dot optics. Ah, but The Bureau is not buying my ammunition or providing a range. So yeah...lack of time, space and money may force me to settle for optics in lieu of serious point shooting skills.

Why couldn’t point shooting skill be applied even if there’s a dot on the gun?

My main question for you however; where are you getting this idea that 5 shots in and your a miracle worker (or however you put it)?

As ECS686 said just above here, 2500 rounds to get really good, I tend to believe - assuming that person was a long time irons shooter. As @MCgrease08 alluded to upthread, if you had no, or just a so-so (my case) front site focus developed, you could adapt more quickly. But not 5 shots. Not even 5 range sessions for me, with time to think about it and study between times. A lot of study, presentation work, and good advice from more experienced, and a lot of determination was needed to get over the hump. Once I was over I was hooked.

 

[DadSmith]

For anyone entertaining the idea of doing a RDS I would recommend taking a class from a Reputable Vetted Instructor. I have been an agency instructor through FLETC for years. I took it upon myself to do a Handgun Combative's MRDS class with Dave Spaulding for a couple reasons.

1 Teaching the private sector I see more and more RDS show up and I wanted to take at least one relevant class to learn the right way.

2 (sort of part of 1) I won’t teach off of “Theory” or a YouTube video. Just what I have carried and or used why how etc

That said I sometimes run a Glock 34 Gen 5 with a Leupold DPP getting acclimated and ran that set up in Dave’s Class. As of now I am not a big proponent of handgun RDS.

Dave Spaulding said in class it takes 2,500 rounds Minimum to get halfway close to where someone with years of irons are with irons. I believe that to be in the low end.

Yes there are some Phenomenal RDS shooters but to be one you really have to be committed. I have been doing Agency or Professional Classes since 1986 so as of yet not sure RDS make me a better shooter.

That is very informative. So around 5k rounds before you start doing well?

 

[thompal]

Slightly off topic, but are the reflexive sights like Holosun, etc., "shake awake"? Or do you have to turn them on manually? Forgive my ignorance but I'm only familiar with red dots on rifles.

I would suspect that any pistol you wear on your hip is always going to keep an optic awake. In fact, I would hope that it would, because I wouldn't want to have to worry about having my sights not wake up easily. Iron sights are always "on" and ready for you to use. I don't trust technology enough to believe that an electronic sight will always be ready.

 

[DadSmith]

Slightly off topic, but are the reflexive sights like Holosun, etc., "shake awake"? Or do you have to turn them on manually? Forgive my ignorance but I'm only familiar with red dots on rifles.

My Holosun is shake awake. If you just slightly tap it, my sight would come on. So if you are walking, moving, or running it most likely will be on from the motion it senses.

 

[MCgrease08]

That is very informative. So around 5k rounds before you start doing well?

It's not really about round count. It's much more about reps on your draw stroke and establishing a new muscle memory.

The presentation with a red dot is faster when you are target focused and bring the dot into your line of sight rather than being front sight focused and then transitioning your eyes to the target.

 

[ECS686]

That is very informative. So around 5k rounds before you start doing well?

I would phrase it “Doing close or as fast as you can with Irons” in a close 15 yards and in. In the Crawl walk run I’d say the 2,500 would be at the Mall Walker stage getting ready to maybe run. I Used RDS on Rifles for a couple Decades the biggest issue and it was not an issue as your bringing it up to 4 contact points. Handgun with just 2 can be a little different depending on if your a locked out or elbows (natural extension) slightly bent shooter.

Most Folks have the target focus down So for most getting the presentation and grip down so the dot is somewhere in the screen is the biggest learning curve “as quick” as Irons JMHE

 

[mcapo]

Nothing really new to add at this point, but I can say with the aging eyes and very poor eyesight, the advancement of red dot optics has brought the opportunity to continue to shoot handguns proficiently (well....sorta proficiently).

If I still had my 30 year old eyes, give me irons but I don't so give me red dots.

 

[cg21]

My Holosun is shake awake. If you just slightly tap it, my sight would come on. So if you are walking, moving, or running it most likely will be on from the motion it senses.

So you think with shake awake an annual battery change is still sufficient for a edc?

 

[92FSTech]

My take on the RDO, and it's worth what you paid for it:

I've been shooting for about 15 years, and am fairly proficient with irons. About 2-3 years back I noticed that the handgun red dot was becoming a thing, and decided I needed to try it out, to at least gain some familiarization, because sooner or later I was going to have to deal with it. I bought an RMR, had a P320 slide milled, and put in some range time with it. I initially struggled pretty badly with acquiring the dot, especially from non-traditional shooting positions or when shooting left-hand only.

I was starting to work through these issues when COVID happened and ammo and components suddenly became unobtainable and I no longer had the ability to dump rounds downrange like I had been before. In some ways this was probably good because I didn't know what I didn't know, and I would have wasted a lot of ammo.

Earlier this year we made some changes at work and I got pushed...not exactly kicking and screaming, but I did have significant reservations...into adopting a red-dot gun as my primary duty pistol. As part of this process, I got sent to the Sig red dot instructor course.

Aside from the opportunity to expend a lot of ammo on somebody else's dime, the course taught me a ton about how to employ the dot effectively. I cleaned up my draw stroke and presentation, learned proper sight picture (you don't have to line the dot up with your irons, or even center it in the window to make hits...it's basically parallax free, so as long as you can see the dot somewhere in the window in-line with the target, and can pull the trigger without disturbing it, you're going to get hits...this did a lot to improve my speed), and assuaged a lot of my concerns about durability and my capabilities if the optic fails.

Coming away from that class, I have a whole new perspective on the Optic. It gives me a threat-focus and greater peripheral awareness. It also doesn't require aligning three focal plains at once like irons do...which makes shooting on the move or between movements much faster and simpler. Others have already pointed out the advantages at distance of being able to simply align the dot with the target and squeeze...and the target isn't obscured by your slide and sights with the dot.

Transitioning to the dot as an iron sight shooter can be tougher than many think. You have to overcome years of sight-alignment and front sight focus that have been drilled into your brain. But I believe that using the dot properly can actually make you a better iron sight shooter because it forces proper presentation and provides immediate feedback to the shooter as a diagnostic tool.

I'm definitely what you'd call a traditionalist, and enjoy shooting older stuff as well as the new stuff. I'm not giving up any of my iron-sighted pistols or revolvers, and am confident in my proficiency with them as they are. But if I was in the market for a new plastic striker-fired gun, I wouldn't consider one that didn't at least have the ability to mount an optic.

As to the equipment issues expressed by the OP, I'd say do yourself a favor and expand your search beyond the M&P. I'm not saying that they're a bad gun, because they are not...but I've always been pretty uninspired by them. A buddy recently picked up a 10mm and I got to play with it and the trigger downright sucks, and from what I've read that's pretty much the norm. If I was a gun company, I'd be embarrassed to put something out on the shelf with that awful trigger in it, which is somehow gritty and mushy all at the same time. At least shop around a bit...there's better stuff out there. I personally like the P320, but YMMV. The good news is that there are a ton of quality options out there right now, and if you're not satisfied with one there's likely somebody out there making one that checks all of your boxes.

 

[ditcherman]

That is very informative. So around 5k rounds before you start doing well?

No, not in my opinion. Not at all. But maybe if you’re stubborn or something.
It all depends how quickly you are able to adapt to a new technique, learn new things, and how ingrained front sight focus is.
Also how willing you are to watch some Sage Dynamics vids, not because he can teach you over the YouTube, but because he can give you the mindset you need when you do go to the range and when you do your dry fire.
As Gabe White states, you should be able to call your shots, whether you pulled the trigger (or sent one down) or not.

 

[MCgrease08]

My take on the RDO, and it's worth what you paid for it:

I've been shooting for about 15 years, and am fairly proficient with irons. About 2-3 years back I noticed that the handgun red dot was becoming a thing, and decided I needed to try it out, to at least gain some familiarization, because sooner or later I was going to have to deal with it. I bought an RMR, had a P320 slide milled, and put in some range time with it. I initially struggled pretty badly with acquiring the dot, especially from non-traditional shooting positions or when shooting left-hand only.

I was starting to work through these issues when COVID happened and ammo and components suddenly became unobtainable and I no longer had the ability to dump rounds downrange like I had been before. In some ways this was probably good because I didn't know what I didn't know, and I would have wasted a lot of ammo.

Earlier this year we made some changes at work and I got pushed...not exactly kicking and screaming, but I did have significant reservations...into adopting a red-dot gun as my primary duty pistol. As part of this process, I got sent to the Sig red dot instructor course.

Aside from the opportunity to expend a lot of ammo on somebody else's dime, the course taught me a ton about how to employ the dot effectively. I cleaned up my draw stroke and presentation, learned proper sight picture (you don't have to line the dot up with your irons, or even center it in the window to make hits...it's basically parallax free, so as long as you can see the dot somewhere in the window in-line with the target, and can pull the trigger without disturbing it, you're going to get hits...this did a lot to improve my speed), and assuaged a lot of my concerns about durability and my capabilities if the optic fails.

Coming away from that class, I have a whole new perspective on the Optic. It gives me a threat-focus and greater peripheral awareness. It also doesn't require aligning three focal plains at once like irons do...which makes shooting on the move or between movements much faster and simpler. Others have already pointed out the advantages at distance of being able to simply align the dot with the target and squeeze...and the target isn't obscured by your slide and sights with the dot.

Transitioning to the dot as an iron sight shooter can be tougher than many think. You have to overcome years of sight-alignment and front sight focus that have been drilled into your brain. But I believe that using the dot properly can actually make you a better iron sight shooter because it forces proper presentation and provides immediate feedback to the shooter as a diagnostic tool.

I'm definitely what you'd call a traditionalist, and enjoy shooting older stuff as well as the new stuff. I'm not giving up any of my iron-sighted pistols or revolvers, and am confident in my proficiency with them as they are. But if I was in the market for a new plastic striker-fired gun, I wouldn't consider one that didn't at least have the ability to mount an optic.

As to the equipment issues expressed by the OP, I'd say do yourself a favor and expand your search beyond the M&P. I'm not saying that they're a bad gun, because they are not...but I've always been pretty uninspired by them. A buddy recently picked up a 10mm and I got to play with it and the trigger downright sucks, and from what I've read that's pretty much the norm. If I was a gun company, I'd be embarrassed to put something out on the shelf with that awful trigger in it, which is somehow gritty and mushy all at the same time. At least shop around a bit...there's better stuff out there. I personally like the P320, but YMMV. The good news is that there are a ton of quality options out there right now, and if you're not satisfied with one there's likely somebody out there making one that checks all of your boxes.

This a quality post. Where's the rep button?