Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[DoggyDaddy]

I run a Holosun 507C-X2 and it's shake awake. Battery life is advertised at 50,000 hours (if using dot reticle)...plus it has solar backup. I plan to change battery annually. Battery is easily accessible from the side (no need to remove red dot from firearm for battery change).

Trijicon RMR Type 2 doesn't have shake awake and is always on. It has a slightly lower battery life (advertised), although should easily get you through a year of "always on". It does have a 16.5 hour battery conservation mode, where brightness is reverted back to auto level from manual. Optic must be removed from firearm to change battery.

Thank you! That's exactly what I was wondering. I figured they almost had to be "shake awake" or always on.

 

[2AOK]

I really can't imagine going back to iron sights on a modern EDC pistol. Same goes for a WML. Dara makes nice holsters for a lot of configurations.

I assume WML means weapon-mounted-light.

Dang, that's a lot of hardware to be totin' around. I'm tall and slim; used to carry a Glock 26 (subcompact 9mm 10rnd). Felt like I was dragging a boat anchor, and got called out a couple of times due to printing.

The comparable S&W is their Subcompact M2.0 9mm. I would like to have one. Slightly larger and heavier than the G26, so adding the optic and a light would be (for me) like walking around with a toaster strapped on at 4 o'clock. For better or worse, the M2.0 subcompact is not available in Optics-ready configuration yet.

Lately I carry Ruger EC9s with a Hogue Handall grip sleeve (adds needed palmswells). Simple, cheap, small and light. Nobody knows it's there and I frequently reach back in a slight panic, thinking the damn thing must have fallen out of its holster. =O I think it's all I need for "personal confrontations" where, in many cases, a gun is drawn and fired before coming up to eye level.

 

[DadSmith]

Are YOU buying Optics-ready pistols now?

I'm in the market for a Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 pistol, or I should say I will be when/if prices come down and supply normalizes.

I like the original 2.0 configuration. No-snag low-set sights, no optics cut atop the slide, and the hinged trigger.
View attachment 217338

I don't like the new optics-ready version with "suppressor-height" sights, and am wary of the new flat trigger. I don't like the looks of the the additional front-of-slide serrations either, or the way S&W seems to have emphasised/sharpened the diagonal transition line at the muzzle, from top of the slide down to the bottom edge. The original slide is smoother / more rounded. Compare the two pics to see what I mean.
View attachment 217339

I see the clear advantage of red dot sights on pistols. Frankly, people having no pistol experience "can't miss" after just 5 practice shots. So it's a game changer, but I'm not sure I want it. I almost never get to shoot these days so my skills are rusty, but I know how to shoot and in the heat of the moment instinctive point shooting is pretty much what happens. I may want to install a red dot in the future, but not now.

I don't see any standard-height replacement sights available (yet) for the new, tall "suppressor-height" sights. And I don't want to spend another $50 to $100 to replace those "new" sights, which make the optics-ready pistol more expensive in the first place.

On the other hand, if I can find the original-version pistol, I can mount a red dot sight on it later via a mounting plate that engages the rear sight dovetail. Of course, that means I lose the rear iron sight... I don't like that, either.

So what are you guys doing?

I'm buying optics ready.
I won't use them on my ccw because they can fail or you forget to put a fresh battery in etc.
Now when I hand them down my children or grandchildren my use them so it will pay off in the future.

 

[2AOK]

Having worn glasses most of my life and now at that age where I need multifocal lenses I find it increasingly more difficult to focus on the front sight. [...] Given I am most likely to use that pistol in the middle of the night without glasses I feel it is a reasonable trade off. That pistol also has a light mounted on it.

Just my

Amen. I accept your two cents, and raise you a nickle.

 

[gregr]

I'll never get laser sights. But red dots aren't laser sights.

I`m well aware. I was making an observation that I felt needed to be made.

 

[2AOK]

I'd go for the optic-cut version. Even it you don't want the red dot now, you may in the future...or the next owner may want that option. Also...the front slide serrations, will vastly improve the ease of performing press checks.

Next owner?! I expect to be buried with my weapons... I can press check an S&W M&P 2.0 with the current minimal forward serrations, but don't need to because there's a loaded chamber indicator.

Red dots are superior to irons on a handgun, for most applications. They're absolutely a force multiplier...making fairly long/precise shots much easier.

Agreed.

Red dots also allow you to target focus, as there is no need to switch your focus from front sight to target and back to front sight.

Agreed. Two-eyes-open means I don't actually look through the optics glass. One eye sees the target and the other just sees the dot. The visual cortex blends/superimposes the two. That's amazingly powerful, but still not as good as practiced, instinctive point shooting.

...a red dot can assist you in diagnosing shooting issues (grip, shot anticipation, etc.)...something that irons can't reveal to you.

I've seen that with laser sights (red dot projected onto the actual target) but am not sure how a red dot optic would help...

I'm 52 and have shot with a blurry front sight for the last few years. The red dot will change your world (for the better), in this scenario.

I agree. My eyes aren't what they once were, but for typical defensive encounters you probably don't need them as much as you think. My Dad was, early in his career, an FBI field agent. He could point shoot like nobody's business! I think THAT SKILL trump's the benefits of red dot optics. Ah, but The Bureau is not buying my ammunition or providing a range. So yeah...lack of time, space and money may force me to settle for optics in lieu of serious point shooting skills.

 

[Dean C.]

Red dot all the handguns, and I agree they make shooting a pistol for newbies much easier (I find most have a hard concept with irons on a pistol as the human brain naturally wants to be target focused). The greenwood mall is all the proof that I need that the "rule of three" is not applicable in today's environment for most law abiding citizens generally.

 

[ACC]

Red dots on pistols? Yes Yes Yes and yes twice on Sunday. It is the future.

 

[2AOK]

... It’s just going to take some more practice for me to be as proficient with a red dot as with irons...

Another mention of the red dot NOT being the panacea it's purported to be. Been watching YouTube review vids as I mount my quest for a new handgun. Everything suggests that the red dot optic makes shooting as easy as "falling off a rock."

Perversly, I'm glad to hear from guys who find it sort of unnatural (at first, anyway).
Thanks

 

[DadSmith]

Red dot all the handguns, and I agree they make shooting a pistol for newbies much easier (I find most have a hard concept with irons on a pistol as the human brain naturally wants to be target focused). The greenwood mall is all the proof that I need that the "rule of three" is not applicable in today's environment for most law abiding citizens generally.

I'm just the opposite. I find red dots to be slower than iron sights. Maybe because I've used iron sights all my life and I'm just faster with it.

 

[Dean C.]

I'm just the opposite. I find red dots to be slower than iron sights. Maybe because I've used iron sights all my life and I'm just faster with it.

They are not for everyone, and I had to spend a shitload of time early during the covid lockdowns working on my presentation. Now I only see the dot, I would also wager starting out on the DPP with it's bigger window also helped. Plus almost all of my pistols have roughly the same grip angle at this point so presentation is uniform.

 

[2AOK]

I have both a 5 inch M&P 2.0 Pro Series which has a Holosun 509T on it. You can read more about the saga off that configuration here. Simply said buyer beware.

The other is a 2.0 4 inch compact. It now wears a Delta Point micro. I have come to like the DP micro, but it has taken many rounds and much work to reach what I consider to be a reasonably proficient state.

I am knocking on the door of 60, near sighted with lots of astigmatism and some scaring on my left eye. A red dot on pistols was simply magic! It enables a level of precision at distance that I simply can no longer achieve with iron sights. You have to put in work to be proficient, and refine your technique, as a red dot magnifies every flaw.

I gravitated to the Sage Dynamics (Aaron Cowan) videos, which helped me greatly. One point on the M&P, I found I needed to modify my grip to tighten my support hand pinky to get the dot acquisition and recoil control I wanted.

I may move to a larger red dot on the compact one day, but if I do it will be an enclosed optic, and a directly milled slide. I don't know if I will ever trust an OEM optic cut again. At the minimum I'll figure in a steel C&H precision weapons plate if I do.

I have both a 5 inch M&P 2.0 Pro Series which has a Holosun 509T on it. You can read more about the saga off that configuration here. Simply said buyer beware.

The other is a 2.0 4 inch compact. It now wears a Delta Point micro. I have come to like the DP micro, but it has taken many rounds and much work to reach what I consider to be a reasonably proficient state.

I am knocking on the door of 60, near sighted with lots of astigmatism and some scaring on my left eye. A red dot on pistols was simply magic! It enables a level of precision at distance that I simply can no longer achieve with iron sights. You have to put in work to be proficient, and refine your technique, as a red dot magnifies every flaw.

I gravitated to the Sage Dynamics (Aaron Cowan) videos, which helped me greatly. One point on the M&P, I found I needed to modify my grip to tighten my support hand pinky to get the dot acquisition and recoil control I wanted.

I may move to a larger red dot on the compact one day, but if I do it will be an enclosed optic, and a directly milled slide. I don't know if I will ever trust an OEM optic cut again. At the minimum I'll figure in a steel C&H precision weapons plate if I do.

I bought an M&P 2.0 Pro Series CORE earlier this year. [...] Draws and dry fires are really needed on a daily basis to get good with it.

Should work fine for dry-fire practice. In fact, I think it'd be fun.

As to the height of the sights on the CORE model, you'll need to shop for holsters a bit more carefully. I bought a decent leather OWB and getting the pistol out was an issue. I ended up with. Kydex OWB and an IWB from Bravo Concealment that works with it. They are also cut for a dot.
Carrying it with the high sights isn't any different.

I have a favorite holster, and I'm pretty sure ALL the S&W M&P 9mm pistols fit it. But the "suppressor-height" won't fit, and are tall enough to snag on the draw from holster and lots of other things. I think they're a bad idea for CCW.

You do have another option if you want standard height sights. Buy a pistol that isn't optic ready and have the slide milled for your particular optic choice. It will sit much lower that the factory cuts.

Thanks for the suggestion. I probably won't do that for two reasons: 1) I think hogging out all that slide metal might somehow voilate the structural integrity/functionality of the weapon. And once done, can't be undone. 2) It's a buh-luddy expensive milling operation, especially when a new gun (and everything) is purchased at a PREMIUM now. Let's Go Brandon!

 

[2AOK]

I have both a 5 inch M&P 2.0 Pro Series which has a Holosun 509T on it. You can read more about the saga off that configuration here. Simply said buyer beware.

I want to read the saga, but your link isn't working.

The other is a 2.0 4 inch compact. It now wears a Delta Point micro. I have come to like the DP micro, but it has taken many rounds and much work to reach what I consider to be a reasonably proficient state.

So is that a new-configuration 4in Compact (with optics cut), or an original configuration pistol with either a) custom milling, or b) a third-party mounting plate that engages the rear-sight dovetail?

I am knocking on the door of 60, near sighted with lots of astigmatism and some scaring on my left eye. A red dot on pistols was simply magic! It enables a level of precision at distance that I simply can no longer achieve with iron sights.

I have astigmatism too. I use a Sig Romeo 5 that enlightened me as to how pronounced my astigmatism is (the 2MOA dot turns into a star burst if I don't wear glasses).

I don't know if I will ever trust an OEM optic cut again. At the minimum I'll figure in a steel C&H precision weapons plate if I do.

So THAT sounds like you're referring to a new-configuration, optics-ready M2.0 Compact 9mm (with S&W being the OEM?).
Or maybe I'm confused. C&H Precision appears to make 3rd-party aftermarket mounting plates for use on pistols that are NOT setup for optics. The plate engages the rear-sight dovetail. I don't mean to cross examine you on this. I just want to understand your point because you're speaking from experience, and that's the most reliable source of information.

 

[Scott58]

Only a matter of time before...what?
Before you buy one? Or before every pistol is optics-ready, and every crim/predator has the benefit of optics...?

before I buy one. Not sure if I'll carry it though. I have a small one on a Beeman p17 that I shoot in the basement quite a bit and I like it well enough, but to carry, I'm not sure if I could get comfortable with it. My normal carry is a 4" 1911 and I'm used to that profile.

 

[2AOK]

How do I cancel a reply I'm making to a comment?
I start to write the reply, but then decide not to.
Can't get rid of the Reply text window.
Can't find a CANCEL button for it.
=O

 

[2AOK]

before I buy one. Not sure if I'll carry it though. [...] I'm not sure if I could get comfortable with it.

Ditto. Thanks for clarification.

 

[NHT3]

Another mention of the red dot NOT being the panacea it's purported to be. Been watching YouTube review vids as I mount my quest for a new handgun. Everything suggests that the red dot optic makes shooting as easy as "falling off a rock."

Perversly, I'm glad to hear from guys who find it sort of unnatural (at first, anyway).
Thanks

Nothing makes shooting as easy as falling off a rock but there are several ways to improve your potential. If you have never used sights on a firearm the red dot is very intuitive but we've all been conditioned to use sights and the transition to a red dot can be challenging.
I had a couple of Chinese ladies for a class a week ago. Because of their lack of experience with sights in general they were hitting targets (dueling tree with 3.5" disks) consistently at 10 yards with a red dot that they struggled to hit at 5 yards with sights. It was a real eye opener for me, no pun intended.
No doubt in my mind the red dot is the wave of the future.

 

[NHT3]

So THAT sounds like you're referring to a new-configuration, optics-ready M2.0 Compact 9mm (with S&W being the OEM?).
Or maybe I'm confused. C&H Precision appears to make 3rd-party aftermarket mounting plates for use on pistols that are NOT setup for optics. The plate engages the rear-sight dovetail. I don't mean to cross examine you on this. I just want to understand your point because you're speaking from experience, and that's the most reliable source of information.

Getting the dot as low on the pistol should be a goal and the mounts that use the dovetail put the dot up much higher than a pistol designed for a dot. As you go higher the POI will change more drastically from the yardage the gun is sighted in at. Sighted in @ 7 yards you should be pretty good from 3 to 10 yards but stretching it further compensating for the offset will be more drastic.

 

[2AOK]

I'm buying optics ready.
I won't use them on my ccw because they can fail or you forget to put a fresh battery in etc.
Now when I hand them down my children or grandchildren my use them so it will pay off in the future.

I respect your choices, but by the time you (and I) kick off, those red dot optics will be...passe and quaint, to put it mildly. =]

Maybe firearms will be, as well. IF (God help us) we're still a free people, our progeny will be using some kind of electro-pulse weapons and sighting via some holographic device planted in the eyeball (or sighting entirely telepathically!)

WOO HOO! Brave New World!

 

[jwamplerusa]

Should work fine for dry-fire practice. In fact, I think it'd be fun.

I have a favorite holster, and I'm pretty sure ALL the S&W M&P 9mm pistols fit it. But the "suppressor-height" won't fit, and are tall enough to snag on the draw from holster and lots of other things. I think they're a bad idea for CCW.

Thanks for the suggestion. I probably won't do that for two reasons: 1) I think hogging out all that slide metal might somehow voilate the structural integrity/functionality of the weapon. And once done, can't be undone. 2) It's a buh-luddy expensive milling operation, especially when a new gun (and everything) is purchased at a PREMIUM now. Let's Go Brandon!

Apologies, I wrote that on the phone.

Try this link

Feedback on Holosun 509T mounting, to M&P C.O.R.E. interface

I posted a question here regarding enclosed red dots. I have reached a decision, and so the next question I am posing is this: Does anyone have direct experience mounting a Holosun 509T to a Smith and Wesson M&P 9 2.0 C.O.R.E mounting interface? My understanding is the M&P C.O.R.E pistols...

www.indianagunowners.com

No, the compact is the original non-C.O.R.E. 4 in pistol. This link is a DP micro, https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1023057024?pid=753849
It replaced the rear sight, and acts as one. It's not for everyone, but I like it.

C&H makes a series of adapter plates for optics ready pistols. Largely in lieu of the plastic adapters that some OEMs ship (cough, S&W, cough). https://chpws.com/product-tag/smith-wesson-mp/?CHPWS=1&pa_model=m2-0&really_curr_tax=410-product_tag

The C&H plate was used to save the 5 inch Pro Series.