Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[gregkl]

I'm going to give up worrying about it and just mill for the Holosun and forget about a rear sight. I trust the dot well enough to not even want a rear sight in the way, let alone pay to put the cut there.

If I was to do it all over again, I would have forgone the suppressor sights completely. I'm actually thinking about knocking the front sight out of my pistol just to get it out of the way.

 

[92FSTech]

Sorry, our internet went out and I'm just seeing this (thanks, Mediacom!). It looks like you've already gotten some good responses, but I'll do my best to answer the questions as well. Remember, this is just one guy's opinion coming from limited experience...there are others here who likely have broader exposure and more time behind an RDO than I do.

QUESTIONS
The red dot on my rifle exhibits distracting aberations under certain circumstances, such as when the light source is behind me.
Q1. Do you find that to be an issue with pistol red dot sights?
Q2. Do you have difficulty "finding the dot" when shooting in very bright daylight? Sun behind you? Sun in front of you?

1. Depends on the dot. This seems to be a lesser issue with the higher quality ones, but dirt and dust can also add to this. It's something you're just going to have to learn to overcome to some extent, and if you're using a proper sight-picture with target focus, the minor abberations are far less noticeable because your focal point is downrange where it belongs and not on the glass.

Another note on distracting elements not really related to aberations but rather the the glass itself...I have a Trijicon RMR, a Holosun 407c, and a Sig Romeo 1 Pro. The Trijicon is arguably the highest quality of the three, however it has the worst glass. There is a blueish/purple-ish tint to it, and some distortion. Initially I had a lot of trouble being distracted by that, and I still find it to be a negative when trying to use my backup irons. The Holoson and the Sig both have larger windows, and clearer glass.

2 - Sometimes. Becasue of this, I prefer to keep the brightness on my dot cranked up. Even working nights, I want it bright so that it doesn't get blown out if somebody turns the lights on, by headlights or my flashlight, or if the gun has to come out before the sun goes down. I'm willing to sacrifice a bit of visual precision and deal with some dot "blooming" rather than risk drawing the gun and not being able to see the dot. Even if the dot is just a large glowing blob in the dark, if I can put that blob over my target I can make hits. I can make hits without the dot, too, but having it makes things a lot quicker and easier.

As others have said, the auto-adjusting technology doesn't seem to have caught up with the demands of the real world yet, so I'd personally stick with manual brightness adjustment, at least for now.

I assume a pistol red dot optic will have a relatively large dot. If dot size can be "dialed up or down" from say, 2MOA to 5MOA, that would be very versatile. Big dot for up-close-and-personal, and tiny dot for dropping the mall food court shooter.

Is dot sized fixed?

There may be a handgun optic out there that allows for changing the dot size, but if there is I'm unaware of it. Trijicon, Sig, and Holosun all offer options with different size dots, but you're stuck with the one that you buy. The Holosun 507 is the more expensive version of the 407, and it allows you to change the color of the dot between red and green, and I think the reticle between a simple dot and a dot in an Eotech-like ring, but I still think you are stuck with one size. This may be a feature that's available down the road...however I'm not sure how much utility it would have in a gunfight under stress, where seconds count. For me a defensive handgun needs to be ready to go the instant it comes out of the holster, wihtout the need to manipulate buttons or levers.

I've personally not found the size of the dot to be a problem...all of mine are on the smaller size, but if you crank up the brightness it blooms out some and is very easy to acquire. I've been told that the larger dots visually dampen your natural movement or "wobble-zone" somewhat, but I've not had a chance to try one out for myself.

I look at the pistols in question strickly as weapons. I don't want to have to think when forced to pick up a weapon. I want to know exactly what to expect...every time. Where the controls are, what the grip angle is, where the muzzle points, best way to clear a jam, etc. The M&P M2.0 line is basically "the same gun" with varying slide and grip lengths (a la Glock et al). Assuming ownership of more than one gun, I want them all to be "the same gun" when in hand.

I also appreciate ubiquity. I like owning tools, vehicles, etc that are not rare. Owning commonplace implements means parts are likely available and typically lots of information exists on how to repair, modify, etc.

To your point, if money were no object I'd probably invest in Sig Sauer pistols. I know CZ and Springfield Armory and some other mfrs make good striker-fired pistols, but for one reason or another I haven't found a product line that registers with me the way M&P M2.0 does. Maybe I should hold out for the M3.0 series. =D

I'm right there with you. I want commonality in any defensive weapon as I don't want to have to take the time to contemplate the manual of arms under stress...it should be something that I am familiar with and have trained to the point that it's basically automatic. With the adoption of the RDO, grip angle has become even more important, IMO, as that initial presentation needs to be exactly the same every time. This was always an issue with irons, too, but it's a lot more noticeable with the dot because when your presentation is off, the dot is simply not there, whereas with irons you could kind of cheat and bring them back into alignment.

What do you think about the original M2.0 trigger? The curved hinged one? I was accustomed to crappy Glock triggers, so I LIKE the original M2.0 trigger.

I ask your opinion because my gut says buy the original M2.0 pistol, not the optics-ready upgrade with its bad trigger, snag-prone sights and plastic optics mounting plates.

I have never been impressed with any M&P trigger. The new ones are horrifically bad. The old ones always felt mushy and inconsistent, but thankfully lacked the grittiness of my buddy's 10mm. Even my other buddy's performance-center long-slide model didn't do anything for me. The grip on the M&P also isn't optimal for my hand...it's very thin at the back and I find it uncomfortable. I don't think they're bad guns...they have a good reputation and I've never personally experienced or known anyone who has had reliability isues with them...they're just not for me.

I agree about the mounting plates, too. They're not a good solution. I'd want something milled for a dedicated optic. Sig offers this from the factory with their RX models, but you're stuck with their optic, which uses the delta-point mounting footprint. I have to admit I wasn't excited about getting stuck with a Romeo 1 Pro (I wanted the Romeo 2, but it was expensive and not even available yet when we were buying), but ours are equipped with the metal shroud and they've held up well so far. Supposedly the Indiana DNR has transitioned to Romeo 1 Pro, and if they are holding up to the environment that those guys use them in, they ought to do fine for the average street cop or concealed-carrier.

Your other option would be to have a slide milled for the optic of your choice. I had my RMR cut done by Maple Leaf, and they were relatively quick and affordable. Yes, it's kind of a pain, but IMO will give you better results than some flimsy plate or dovetail mount that creates another point of failure and raises the sight even higher over the bore than it needs to be. The other upside to this is you could buy that original M&P 2.0 that you prefer, and then select the dot of your choice and have the slide milled for that specific one.

Holosun released a new model called the SCS at SHOT this year. Right now it's only available for Glock, but it's low-profile and co-witnesses with standard factory sights. It's also solar-powered, has a non-replaceable battery, and supposedly has advanced multi-sensor auto-brightness adjustment that works very well. I'm mostly excited about the low profile aspect at this point, but it's cool that they are working on the other stuff as well. I'm watching for them to release these for something other than Glock....I'd particularly like them to make one that direct-mounts to my Beretta 92X Compact RDO, as the Beretta mounting system is just stupid, and a purpose-built optic that countours to the top of the slide is the only solution that really makes sense for that gun, IMO.

 

[ECS686]

Of course not. If dots are all you shoot then hopefully you practice enough to master them. However, they both share fundamentals and a well rounded shooter can do both. Presentation, trigger management, recovery and transition is needed on both. The dot might help you see WHERE you want your bullet hole, but you still gotta do the HOW to get your bullet hole there. Fundamentals are the same but the dot Comes with a little more liability in finding the dot. If you compare scores in the games you will find the top places were in the top places with irons. No dot ever won the Casual Gun Owner a match.

Trapper, Maybe our term of Casual is different. I have never seen a “casual gun owner” regularly show up and shoot matches or go to classes. They usually depend on a relative that is a gun guy or was in the National Guard in 1973 for their firearms info (often antiquated which is another thread)

Those are the ones I see throw a 400 optic on and think they are good when they would be better off running irons. Optics are like running a 1911 there’s a little more to them. Some folks can run them great most well not so much!

 

[Route 45]

Trapper, Maybe our term of Casual is different. I have never seen a “casual gun owner” regularly show up and shoot matches or go to classes.

"Casual gun owner" is just a term he uses (over and over, I might add) to make himself feel more important than everyone else.

 

[kaveman]

The closest thing to an adjustable dot size would probably be the Holosun 507c. You can select between 2moa dot only, 32moa circle only(which you can use as a huge dot!), or dot and circle(again, a huge dot with a fine aiming point in the center). They're available in different color options, red most common, green for $40-50 more, or gold which I've never actually seen. I suppose it can be ordered but since I prefer the ACSS reticle I've never really looked at what's available in the standard reticle. ACSS is red or green only. You can select a color when you purchase the optic but it is whatever it is,.....you can't change colors on a Holosun.

 

[ditcherman]

Of course not. If dots are all you shoot then hopefully you practice enough to master them. However, they both share fundamentals and a well rounded shooter can do both. Presentation, trigger management, recovery and transition is needed on both. The dot might help you see WHERE you want your bullet hole, but you still gotta do the HOW to get your bullet hole there. Fundamentals are the same but the dot Comes with a little more liability in finding the dot. If you compare scores in the games you will find the top places were in the top places with irons. No dot ever won the Casual Gun Owner a match.

Thanks and well said.
I thought I knew the answer, and I also think there will be a whole generation coming that may not know what irons are, or at least front sight focus, just like some now would not know what that funny skip is in the middle of a song when you’re listening to an 8 track tape. Kids these days!

I think learning a dot has made me a better irons shooter, it forced me to get my presentation right, as 98FStech also said.

I would have assumed no “casual gun owner” ever won a match at all, so not sure what your trying to compare here. I’ve never competed so have no frame of reference.
Basically the people that are winning with dots did, or would have, won with irons, because fundamentals matter.

 

[Dean C.]

Thanks and well said.
I thought I knew the answer, and I also think there will be a whole generation coming that may not know what irons are, or at least front sight focus, just like some now would not know what that funny skip is in the middle of a song when you’re listening to an 8 track tape. Kids these days!

I think learning a dot has made me a better irons shooter, it forced me to get my presentation right, as 98FStech also said.

I would have assumed no “casual gun owner” ever won a match at all, so not sure what your trying to compare here. I’ve never competed so have no frame of reference.
Basically the people that are winning with dots did, or would have, won with irons, because fundamentals matter.

Open class (the guys who win generally) have been running dots on pistols before some here (myself included) were born.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Trapper, Maybe our term of Casual is different. I have never seen a “casual gun owner” regularly show up and shoot matches or go to classes. They usually depend on a relative that is a gun guy or was in the National Guard in 1973 for their firearms info (often antiquated which is another thread)

Those are the ones I see throw a 400 optic on and think they are good when they would be better off running irons. Optics are like running a 1911 there’s a little more to them. Some folks can run them great most well not so much!

Thanks and well said.
I thought I knew the answer, and I also think there will be a whole generation coming that may not know what irons are, or at least front sight focus, just like some now would not know what that funny skip is in the middle of a song when you’re listening to an 8 track tape. Kids these days!

I think learning a dot has made me a better irons shooter, it forced me to get my presentation right, as 98FStech also said.

I would have assumed no “casual gun owner” ever won a match at all, so not sure what your trying to compare here. I’ve never competed so have no frame of reference.
Basically the people that are winning with dots did, or would have, won with irons, because fundamentals matter.

When I use the term CGO, it is not derogatory like one with a complex might think. Trying hard in these political proper times to not hurt tender feelings, to me facts are facts.

Trainers, military, LEO, Security and Competitive Shooters fighting their way to first place all take a serious attempt at developing their best skill set with a gun. Or at least they should and they try. And it shows by they way they handle.

Then there are gun owners who know the basics and shoot recreational from time to time. More Casual if you will. They have fun and can defend themselves for the most part with a firearm. They are legal and don’t hurt anyone and respect firearm ownership. For many reasons however they choose not to be in the first group.

Not to be confused with Billy Bob who got his education from his drunken coon hunting cousin and absolutely knows it all. Watch for him on the gun accident news channel.

If you don’t think this last form of Amoeba Gun owner exist, then look at the bullet holes in the ceiling walls and platforms at your local indoor range. Or, look for the damage at our outdoor ranges which are a constant nuisance. Listen for a slide closing behind your back and the toothless jerk states…”but it ain’t loaded”.

I hope this explains how I and only I choose to categorize people handling guns. Others can do them. I’ll do me.


My lifetime goals and work have been to bring every gun owner to a better skill set. It takes work, commitment and determination but I never met a shooter who was disappointed in trying and training…forever.

Disclaimer….this is my own generalization and it is not perfect and there are of course exceptions. But my experience beats witness to all three almost every day. And I’m sure there are other trainers that would agree.

 

[gregkl]

I suppose I would be considered a CGO then. I'm okay with that. Sure I have taken several classes and even did some matches.

I do get to the range on average 35 times per year, so I am probably considered occasional by some.

I do have fun.

I'm not in the first group because all but one, really, are professions. Of which I have not chosen to do.

So that leaves the last group, competitive shooting. Like I mentioned I did a couple matches but I have an issue with time. I place way too much emphasis on time and not near enough on community. That's on me.

So, therefore, it hasn't been my cup of tea to invest the better part of a day to send 200-300 rounds downrange. That is the reason I like the CC match at Riley. I can sign up for a time slot, come shoot my COF's and leave. Other than drive time, I'm there for 30-45 minutes tops.

My brother is a competitive shooter who travels all over shooting matches. He loves the community of shooting and loves to talk...and talk...and tell stories...

Though I am rather verbose on the forums, I am actually a man of few words.

 

[ditcherman]

I suppose I would be considered a CGO then. I'm okay with that. Sure I have taken several classes and even did some matches.

I do get to the range on average 35 times per year, so I am probably considered occasional by some.

I do have fun.

I'm not in the first group because all but one, really, are professions. Of which I have not chosen to do.

So that leaves the last group, competitive shooting. Like I mentioned I did a couple matches but I have an issue with time. I place way too much emphasis on time and not near enough on community. That's on me.

So, therefore, it hasn't been my cup of tea to invest the better part of a day to send 200-300 rounds downrange. That is the reason I like the CC match at Riley. I can sign up for a time slot, come shoot my COF's and leave. Other than drive time, I'm there for 30-45 minutes tops.

My brother is a competitive shooter who travels all over shooting matches. He loves the community of shooting and loves to talk...and talk...and tell stories...

Though I am rather verbose on the forums, I am actually a man of few words.

Agree with you on the value of time vs community as I am the same, right or wrong.

I think if I were to generalize it, while some might group all who are in a profession into a category, I don’t believe all LEO and military are gun guys and therefore are not going to pursue perfection, likewise there are some “casual gun owners” who are not competitors, who are pretty darn serious about being the best they can be. I’d like to think I’m kinda in that one, but like I’ve said elsewhere, you don’t know what you don’t know. That’s what makes the journey.

 

[cbhausen]

I have some untested theories on how to get someone up to speed pretty quickly (seemed to work well for the Chinese ladies) but wouldn't want to charge for a class unless I felt I was improving performance of students.. Possibly I can talk the owner at Parabellum into fronting the classroom and a little range time for 2 or 3 guinea pigs to see how well my theories pan out. If I can arrange it I'll put something up on the Parabellum forum about when I can do it. If it works out I'll set up a class for a reasonable fee and see if it goes.

Count me in. I’ll be your guinea pig. I’ve been carrying for a long time and only recently decided to hang a red dot (RMR Type 2) on my Glock 19. I’ve shot it very little with the dot on it, mostly done a bunch of dry firing with a MantisX. And happy to pay you for your time.

 

[ECS686]

Agree with you on the value of time vs community as I am the same, right or wrong.

I think if I were to generalize it, while some might group all who are in a profession into a category, I don’t believe all LEO and military are gun guys and therefore are not going to pursue perfection, likewise there are some “casual gun owners” who are not competitors, who are pretty darn serious about being the best they can be. I’d like to think I’m kinda in that one, but like I’ve said elsewhere, you don’t know what you don’t know. That’s what makes the journey.

I’ll add anyone that goes to professional training and shoots matches isn’t a casual shooter to me. Sure you might not be in it to win it but your doing good things above and beyond most.

Out of all the millions of gun owners there are only about 15,000 professional students so there’s that!

Also, As a retired LE trainer here is the LE breakdown. 10% 80% 10%

Top 10% are your top shooters, squared away and always practicing and going to training on their own time and dime.

The 80% in the middle are the ones that meet minimum state or agency standards most by less than 10 points and are the ones that quip “well good enough til next time” which doesn’t mean they are proficient.

Then the bottom 10% that cause agencies to dumb down policy. They are more dangerous to everyone but the bad guy.

All that said as far as Law Enforcement and Red Dots I believe a good resource if we could get it would be to see how agencies like Indiana Conservation Officers that just went to Sig 320 with RDS
And Idaho State Police with Glock 19 Gen 5 and Holosons and see what their transition from Irons was like.

And LAPD with the FN 509 they just did.

Or any County and Municipal anyone knows about. But if it’s like most transition course I have been through they get enough to make a dent and with about 3 months of carrying (provided they practice a little on their time) they should be close.

Not something I see on the casual civilian side

 

[2AOK]

Well fellas, today I uncapped the Sig Romeo 5 red dot optic that's been mounted on a rifle for three+ years. A rifle that lives in a safe and has never been fired since mounting the Romeo 5.

There are two buttons atop the Romeo 5. One for increasing brightness and the other for decreasing it. Either button can turn the optic dot on and off. Today the buttons were not able to switch brightness levels properly. The whole system went 'haywire.' Instead of eight brightness settings, I could achieve only 4 and the 4th was bizarre with a powerful red halo at the circumference of the reticle. Like an acid flashback, man...

I tried trouble shooting, but nothing worked - and the CR2032 battery measured 3.10 volts, so no problem there. Sig Sauer is a class act. I called and they sent me an RMA label. Like I said earlier, if money were no object I'd probably invest in Sig pistols instead of S&W.

My takeaway: The Sig Romeo 5 is a well respected red dot optic known to be reliable and tough (watched a YT vid prior to buying it where a guy shot his optic with a 12-guage shot gun). The specimen in question has been lazing about in a safe in a climate-controlled area of my home. It's never felt a single jolt of recoil...yet it failed.

If I buy a pistol now (or soon), I'll wait until the red-dot pistol optics industry settles down to truly reliable technology and standardized mounting before having any slide machined. Or I'll hold off from buying anything at all, and buy pistols later that are designed for whatever the optics mounting spec turns out to be.

 

[MCgrease08]

If I buy a pistol now (or soon), I'll wait until the red-dot pistol optics field settles down to reliable technology

I have good news for you friend, we're already there.

There are several manufacturers making proven, reliable RDS handgun optics today. Many have been mentioned already in this thread (Trijicon, Holosun, Leupold, even Steiner has a new one that seems to be performing well.)

Check out the Sage Dynamics white paper at this link for all of the data.

Sage Dynamics

Sage Dynamics offers reality-based training for law enforcement, military and private citizens.

www.sagedynamics.org

 

[Route 45]

Well fellas, today I uncapped the Sig Romeo 5 red dot optic that's been mounted on a rifle for three+ years. A rifle that lives in a safe and has never been fired since mounting the Romeo 5.

There are two buttons atop the Romeo 5. One for increasing brightness and the other for decreasing it. Either button can turn the optic dot on and off. Today the buttons were not able to switch brightness levels properly. The whole system went 'haywire.' Instead of eight brightness settings, I could achieve only 4 and the 4th was bizarre with a powerful red halo at the circumference of the reticle. Like an acid flashback, man...

I tried trouble shooting, but nothing worked - and the CR2032 battery measured 3.10 volts, so no problem there. Sig Sauer is a class act. I called and they sent me an RMA label. Like I said earlier, if money were no object I'd probably invest in Sig pistols instead of S&W.

My takeaway: The Sig Romeo 5 is a well respected red dot optic known to be reliable and tough (watched a YT vid prior to buying it where a guy shot his with a 12-guage shot gun). The specimen in question has been lazing about in a safe in a climate-controlled area of my home. It's never felt a single jolt of recoil...yet it failed.

If I buy a pistol now (or soon), I'll wait until the red-dot pistol optics field settles down to reliable technology and standardized mounting before having any slide machined. Or I'll hold off from buying anything at all, and buy pistols later that are designed for whatever the optics mounting spec turns out to be.

Not sure why it matters if your red dot works or not, if it’s just going to sit unzeroed on a rifle in your safe for 3 years.

 

[gregkl]

Agree with you on the value of time vs community as I am the same, right or wrong.

I think if I were to generalize it, while some might group all who are in a profession into a category, I don’t believe all LEO and military are gun guys and therefore are not going to pursue perfection, likewise there are some “casual gun owners” who are not competitors, who are pretty darn serious about being the best they can be. I’d like to think I’m kinda in that one, but like I’ve said elsewhere, you don’t know what you don’t know. That’s what makes the journey.

I try to be the best that I can be and I am with the amount of time, money and effort I expend. If I was putting 20K rounds downrange a year vs 5K, I'd be much better than I am.

But that is how most everything in life works. Pro's in any endeavor get to where they are by putting in the "reps".

I'm sure I'm in the upper percentile of shooting ability across all gun owners. But for me that isn't saying much since there are millions of gun owners that haven't finished a box of ammo...ever.

If I start comparing myself to competitive shooters, I am quickly humbled.

Sure, I can clear a Texas Star and a plate rack but at speeds that would put a competitive shooter to sleep, lol.

 

[MCgrease08]

I try to be the best that I can be and I am with the amount of time, money and effort I expend. If I was putting 20K rounds downrange a year vs 5K, I'd be much better than I am.

But that is how most everything in life works. Pro's in any endeavor get to where they are by putting in the "reps".

I'm sure I'm in the upper percentile of shooting ability across all gun owners. But for me that isn't saying much since there are millions of gun owners that haven't finished a box of ammo...ever.

If I start comparing myself to competitive shooters, I am quickly humbled.

Sure, I can clear a Texas Star and a plate rack but at speeds that would put a competitive shooter to sleep, lol.

I have to constantly tell myself to compare my skills today to where I was yesterday. I can learn from others, but it does no good to compare myself to them.

 

[gregkl]

I have to constantly tell myself to compare my skills today to where I was yesterday. I can learn from others, but it does no good to compare myself to them.

So true. Sometimes I look back at the drills I do to see if/how much I have improved.

 

[2AOK]

[...] dirt and dust can also add to this [...] if you're using a proper sight-picture with target focus, the minor abberations are far less noticeable because your focal point is downrange where it belongs and not on the glass.
[...] There is a blueish/purple-ish tint to it, and some distortion. Initially I had a lot of trouble being distracted by that, and I still find it to be a negative when trying to use my backup irons.

Again, thanks for a detailed, informative reply.

My very limited experience with red dots indicates that I can (and do) look through the glass with my right eye...but what's really happening is the right eye mostly sees the dot, and left eye mostly sees the target. Yesterday while trying to coax my Romeo 5 back to life, I left the front lens cover ON the optic (as an experiment) so all I saw was a black field with a red dot. It wasn't as visually "comfortable," but the vision+brain mix still happened; the right eye still saw the dot and left eye still saw the target. It's a powerful phenomenon.

There may be a handgun optic out there that allows for changing the dot size, but if there is I'm unaware of it. [...] The Holosun 507 is the more expensive version of the 407, and it allows you to change the color of the dot between red and green, and I think the reticle between a simple dot and a dot in an Eotech-like ring.

I've personally not found the size of the dot to be a problem...all of mine are on the smaller size, but if you crank up the brightness it blooms out some and is very easy to acquire. I've been told that the larger dots visually dampen your natural movement or "wobble-zone" somewhat, but I've not had a chance to try one out for myself.

I think the dot-and-ring reticle would work. Dot for distance, ring for short range. For CCW I'd keep it on the ring reticle, and switch to the dot to engage at distance. Thanks for the information. I'll start researching sights that offer that feature.

In line with your comments, if I turn down the Romeo 5 brightness, the dot gets small enough to shoot with rifle at up to 100 yards (I think). And as you say, turning the brightness up provides a big blooming blob for closer work.

I'm right there with you. I want commonality in any defensive weapon...it should be something that I am familiar with and have trained to the point that it's basically automatic. With the adoption of the RDO, grip angle has become even more important, [...] when your presentation is off, the dot is simply not there.

Good point. I see how using a red dot optic could tighten up my skills in general. Honestly, I don't want to give in to yet another "tech solution." I see the HUGE benefits of two-eyes-open that, for me, is only possible with the dot, but people are becoming too reliant on "stuff" that's too reliant on micro chips and international manufacturing.

I have friends who can't wait for DRIVERLESS CARS. I just shake my head at their willingness to forfeit autonomy, responsibility and self reliance. If driverless cars become the norm, I'll select my most cherished pistol and use it on myself. No optics necessary. =]

I have never been impressed with any M&P trigger. The new ones are horrifically bad. The old ones always felt mushy and inconsistent, but thankfully lacked the grittiness of my buddy's 10mm. I don't think they're bad guns...they have a good reputation and I've never personally experienced or known anyone who has had reliability isues with them...they're just not for me.

Understood.
Lucky for me, I've never had opportunity to shoot with a top-notch trigger. Blissful ignorance. =D

If you don't mind saying, what do you carry as your duty sidearm?

I agree about the mounting plates, too. They're not a good solution. I'd want something milled for a dedicated optic. [...] Your other option would be to have a slide milled for the optic of your choice. I had my RMR cut done by Maple Leaf, and they were relatively quick and affordable.

Holosun released a new model called the SCS at SHOT this year. Right now it's only available for Glock, but it's low-profile and co-witnesses with standard factory sights. It's also solar-powered, has a non-replaceable battery, and supposedly has advanced multi-sensor auto-brightness adjustment that works very well.

If I can decide on one specific optic (that's likely to last forever...) I'll mill a standard slide. But my instinct is to wait for a universal, industry-wide optics mounting spec. Thanks for the heads-up regarding the new Holoson. I'll study up.

 

[MCgrease08]

my instinct is wait for a universal, industry-wide optics mounting spec. T

I'm not sure a universal footprint is ever going to happen. There are too many patents and engineering factors at play. The closest we have to a standard now is the RMR footprint.