Mr Cleans gay brother Mr Fabuloso
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"Pride" month is upon us...
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Fair summation of the "god" question.
As a person who has suffered all manner of abuse from "Christians" "in the name of god", it is hard to be magnanimous with anyone who considers themselves religious.
It's she by the way. I'm responding to you because you have displayed some level intelligence and at least the appearance of listening. I do not believe giving children whatever medical treatment they need is evil. It is the opposite. Withholding medical care base on the superstitions and scientific awareness of bronze-age fairy tales is the real evil in my opinion. People used to think epilepsy was caused by witches or demonic possession or god's punishment. It seems like anti-trans people today have the same level of scientific sophistication.
People that think medical assistance for transgender children is bad, are basically saying they think that they don't really exist. No amount hate, religious fervor or denial of science is going to change the fact that they exist and they need help. We don't deny children insulin because "god didn't make them that way".
Acknowledging the existence of transgender children isn't "encouraging them to explore sexuality". It has nothing to do with sexuality.
It seems you still think this is left vs right thing. It is a medical thing. I don't think I have said "all of the right" about anything. But generally speaking, that's where anti-trans hate is coming from. Just today Jordan Peterson threw an epic temper tantrum because he's not welcome to spew his hate on someone else's social media platform.
It looks to me like another case of someone crying oppression because the particular bigotry they support is now outdated. I have been around a long time and this looks to me just like the weeping and wailing that happened with civil rights, for women, non-whites and gay people.
To whomever said it: Please don't assume all LGBT people are enthused about some of the outrageous stuff that goes on at pride events. Also, healthy adults don't condone any indecent or sexual activity around minors. But here's a point of clarification: Two grown women holding hands is not "in your face" or "deviant sexual behavior". It is normal affection.
Here's the problem, the whole transgender thing is outrageous.
Shifting the goal post from tolerating gay people and gay marriage into demanding elective surgery for the children of parents who have brainwashed them into some social fad, is not acceptable. In fact it is radical and extremist.
It has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with pedophilia.
You're gaslighting this into a religious debate, when it is not.
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So, what kind of firearms do you have?
There is a good argument to be made for this.
Your “anti trans” “medical treatment denial” is another’s “demanding elective surgery for the children of parents who have brainwashed them”.
In my eyes, this is the basis of our differences.
It’s a big gap to close, to even come close to seeing each other’s points.
The incremental creeping of what is expected to be accepted as normal is real.
I also want to say I’m sorry you were hurt by Christians. Many have been, we all handle it differently, just remember Christians aren’t God.
PS this is a gun forum, what guns are you into?
Denying "necessary" medical care might have more weight, if it weren't for people that regretted what they did.
So now, do something to an 8 year old, and then later, the kid wants to kill themself because some idiot thought they should change.
If an 9 year old thinks he is a one legged pirate, do you amputate the leg?
So now, do something to an 8 year old, and then later, the kid wants to kill themself because some idiot thought they should change.
If an 9 year old thinks he is a one legged pirate, do you amputate the leg?
You give them WAY to much credit. 8 is old by their standards.
Charlize Theron
In 2019, Charlize Theron revealed that one of her children had come out to her as trans when she was just 3 years old, and Charlize did not hesitate to believe her when she said that she was born as the wrong gender.
Mental illness has no boundariesYou give them WAY to much credit. 8 is old by their standards.
Charlize Theron
In 2019, Charlize Theron revealed that one of her children had come out to her as trans when she was just 3 years old, and Charlize did not hesitate to believe her when she said that she was born as the wrong gender.
Some cultures think it's "medically necessary" to mutilate the genitals of young girls so they don't stray from the husbands they are assigned at age 13 or 14.
Slapping the word "healthcare" in front of something doesn't make it so. Having a moron in a lab coat do the hacking doesn't make it healthcare. This is just the same old postmodernist word game nonsense. The gender cultists are mutilating kids so they will become unstable, disordered, ripe pickings for Marxist organizers and pedophile groomers. Their goal is the burning down of all that is normal and healthy, so obviously they're not going to blink at lying and word games.
But isn't this the same kind of thinking? I've been a religious person. I've been around religious people in the past and I am around religious people in the present. Some are awesome. Some are not. It's been my experience that the religion doesn't make the asshat. The the person does. To an asshat, religion is just a tool. Surely you've run into people in your world that are not religious and are asshats. That's just the way it is. Some Christians live their beliefs to do good. Some Christians use their beliefs as a club to beat up the people they don't like. If those same people weren't Christians they'd manifest their ass in some other way.
So I think coming to terms with that would actually serve you rather than fomenting your own reciprocal hate towards them.
Okay. I'm sorry I did not pick up on that. It's rare that women engage in these kinds of discussions on INGO. Sometimes I think, even if they're reading this stuff, they're sitting back laughing at us.
Maybe I might address some of the religious stuff in another post. But to address the ideas about trans, a couple of things here. I'm really interested in understanding this worldview, because it's very foreign. To be honest, it challenges me to take it seriously. From what you've said here and elsewhere, you believe that laws restricting what you characterize as "medical care for children" are wrong, and are hurting children. You've characterized the right-wing as "killing trans". You've also expressed that your views on male/female is based on current science. And you've expressed that this is not a political viewpoint.
I think it's important to acknowledge that it IS a worldview. When I say that I'm not implying that you're merely thinking this because of politics. I think to you it feels like reality. To me, my worldview feels like reality too. There's perception of reality, and there IS reality. So what's real beyond the perception? I think that's the essential question of epistemology. I think everyone perceives at least a little reality. So maybe some of what you believe is real. And some of what I believe is real. But I say that your worldview is on the left because what you describe is from a left worldview, whether you feel it's political or you feel it's reality.
In my worldview, the people who feel gender dysphoria are real. I prefer to say it that way than say "trans", so that we understand what it means. I don't think it's as widespread as you do. And in terms of kids, I think there are indeed kids with real gender dysphoria. I think it's not as common as claimed. And I think that many kids that might be confused about their bodies are thought, incorrectly, to be trans.
Before I said "sexuality", but what I'm trying to convey is the feeling of confusion some people have about what's happening to their bodies as they start puberty. That's normal. But it's not always, or even usually gender dysphoria. It's an awkward stage. Like I said earlier, some kids grow out of that feeling of awkwardness, and they go on to lead normal, happy lives. And many of the kids that would have otherwise, end up going the route of medical intervention. And they regret it.
So that's pretty different from your worldview. And this worldview may seem foreign to you. Some accuse people who believe the way I do of hating. It's not that. So if you agree that everyone has at least a little reality in their worldview, what part of my worldview could you concede is real?
No. I don't believe they don't exist. And I don't classify that as "medical assistance". I classify it as "medical intervention", which medical intervention for anything isn't bad in itself. But I do believe that a large number of kids end up on this path that would otherwise grow out of it, or, they end up being worse off, because of the high risk of complications for the medical intervention.
I think the way you classify it isn't accurate because it sounds like you're dismissing the reasons that it's a controversial treatment. The puberty blockers are intended to delay puberty until kids are either old enough to decide if they want to go through transition surgery, or, until they're old enough to have transitioning surgery. That's a medical intervention. They're stopping the natural development of children just in case they might be trans. And it's a very drastic step. Puberty blockers are not as reversible as claimed. It seems objectively true to me. The evidence is there, though people on the trans-activist side dismiss the evidence.
I think there's a problem we both have. I said I don't understand your worldview, and that I want to understand it. You obviously do not understand their worldview either. I think I got the gist of your "god" issues correct as you expressed it to them. You said as much. I also think I understand their perspective on trans as well. For most Christians, I would say there's no hate towards trans people. There's skepticism. And I think that's fair to be skeptical of it. You classify it as denial of science, but they think it's a denial of science when you claim it's "denying medical treatments" as if it's akin to denying insulin to a child with type 1 diabetes. Those aren't even in the same scientific realm. One is a medically controversial treatment given to kids whose condition is difficult to diagnose accurately because it depends so much on knowing how they actually feel.
How many Christians are saying, "god didn't make them that way?" What they're saying, what they've been saying to you is that they're skeptical that these kids are all trans, and that this is the proper treatment for them.
No, it does have to do with sexuality. But that's probably not the most accurate way to describe what I'm trying to say. You can acknowledge the existence of transgender children. I do think that gender dysphoria can happen in youth. I also strongly think that it is over-diagnosed. It seems like there's an eagerness for transgender activists to see someone who might be having a hard time going through puberty, and try to encourage them to think that maybe they're really a different sex. And the idea that biological sex isn't a thing, would tend to make those judgements extraordinarily inaccurate. So young and impressionable children might tend to believe the adults who assure them that they know what they're talking about. And then go along with medical interventions that are not very reversible.
Well, like I said. We all have a worldview. It's the accumulation of all of the things you believe about everything. It's the basis for your learned instincts. That worldview is NOT reality. Yours isn't. Mine isn't. So when I say your worldview is left, I'm saying that because the things you're saying are from a left perspective. So I'm not saying you're political. I'm describing your worldview.
Okay, let's talk about that. I think Peterson's temper does get him in trouble. But, you look at it as him spewing hate. But you're judging him from the morals found in your own world view. And that's not any better than what you accuse Christians of.
From your perspective you think it's all about hate. I saw his tweet. I thought parts of it were wrong. Parts of it were correct. Let's look at that:
He said, "Remember when pride was a sin? And Ellen Page just had her breasts removed by a criminal physician."
I don't know if you get what he means or not. When he asked about when pride was a sin, he's talking about the literal meaning of pride, implying that pride is not the correct feeling to have about one's sexuality. That pride is thought of as a negative trait. And I agree with that to an extent. I think there are some uses of pride that are not harmful. Like doing a good job at something and taking pride in your work. But he means the haughty kind of pride. He's saying they picked a poor name for their movement.
Okay so then he deadnamed Ellen Page, which is only a sin to people with that left worldview. It's not an indicator of hate on the right. It's a sense of the reality, that the person transitioning is still the same sex as before, still has the same chromosomes, the same physiology, but with cosmetic surgery in the hopes of making them feel more comfortable with their bodies.
Peterson understand gender dysphoria. He's spoken about it in a clinical sense enough. As a psychologist he has expressed that he does not agree with affirmation as the best treatment for it. That psychotherapy should be preferred, but that in extreme cases surgery might be the last resort. That's what he's said in the past. And I suspect that's why he refers to the physician who did it as being "criminal". Of course it's not a crime to do these surgeries. But the surgeries are quite lucrative, and there seems to be a trans industrial complex forming around making them more common.
I've seen people tweet a lot more hateful things like that about people on the right. And they haven't been banned. I don't think what he said breaks any of the guidelines. The language that he use could have been toned down and still have expressed what he was saying. But the fact that saying hateful things about, say, Trump supporters, while banning someone for something that only is thought of as wrong by a left worldview, is not an objective standard.
What he's saying is not outdated. And I think the anger you feel towards what you think he's saying is unwarranted. It's not the same thing as the civil rights movement. I think what's happening now with the culture war won't resolve like civil rights did. People will not accept the left worldview. It's gone far beyond what reality can support. This is indeed a left/right thing). You just think that the worldview you have is real, and that the people on the right are the ones whose worldviews aren't real. Well, what is actually science, you're calling old thinking. What makes you think that your "new" thinking is real and not just an ideologically based worldview?
Well it's good that you've acknowledged that there is a limit to how far the worldview goes. Because people are wondering how far it can go. I've often believed that the right needs the left for society to progress from traditional thinking, when the traditional thinking doesn't reflect reality. But, the left needs the right because progressives cannot always tell when they've gone further than reality. So the right constrains the left to what is reasonable.
It's my view that the left has gone too far with LGBT than is real. I think the right still isn't quite there to the point of what we could reasonably say is reality. But the left has gone far past it. So like I said, I don't think we will see your worldview as being the norm in 50 years. It'll be somewhere between where the right is now, so accepting that there is such a thing as gender dysphoria, and some trans people. But no grooming (that's a thing that looks real to me), no normalization of pedophilia. No crazy tictok videos of crazy people. I think it will equalize around something close to reality.
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@Epicenity, I mean this kind of thing happens. Do you really believe that a child that's 3 years old can come out as trans? Kids don't really understand what boys and girls are at that age to a sufficient level to even know what it means to come out as trans. It's like today it's like a trend. A badge of honor to have a trans kid, so every progressive parent grooms their own kids to be something that will earn them their merit badge for being the proud parent of a trans.You give them WAY to much credit. 8 is old by their standards.
Charlize Theron
In 2019, Charlize Theron revealed that one of her children had come out to her as trans when she was just 3 years old, and Charlize did not hesitate to believe her when she said that she was born as the wrong gender.
This is what's sold to "trans" kids.
If you can look at this and not see why people are angry, you are disingenuous.
Over the counter hormones, with pedophile artwork on the package, and a disclaimer to hide from parents.
And every "trans" person I've met thinks it's the greatest thing ever and tries to push it on everyone in their social group. Even going as far as to suggest it to people who aren't "trans."
If you want to know how a 0.01% part of the population explodes into being everywhere, this is how.
"trans" people themselves have molded my opinion of them. And there's not been a single positive take away from any of it. In fact, I'd classify them as straight up evil, maybe not knowingly or intentionally evil, but swept up in a fad that causes extreme numbers of suicides and destruction of society. The part that makes that evil is their awareness that it's causing these things, but their narcissism involved in trying to propagate it anyway.
If you can look at this and not see why people are angry, you are disingenuous.
Over the counter hormones, with pedophile artwork on the package, and a disclaimer to hide from parents.
And every "trans" person I've met thinks it's the greatest thing ever and tries to push it on everyone in their social group. Even going as far as to suggest it to people who aren't "trans."
If you want to know how a 0.01% part of the population explodes into being everywhere, this is how.
"trans" people themselves have molded my opinion of them. And there's not been a single positive take away from any of it. In fact, I'd classify them as straight up evil, maybe not knowingly or intentionally evil, but swept up in a fad that causes extreme numbers of suicides and destruction of society. The part that makes that evil is their awareness that it's causing these things, but their narcissism involved in trying to propagate it anyway.
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Munchausen syndrome by proxyYou give them WAY to much credit. 8 is old by their standards.
Charlize Theron
In 2019, Charlize Theron revealed that one of her children had come out to her as trans when she was just 3 years old, and Charlize did not hesitate to believe her when she said that she was born as the wrong gender.
Munchausen syndrome by proxy is a mental illness and a form of child abuse. The caretaker of a child, most often a mother, either makes up fake symptoms or causes real symptoms to make it look like the child is sick.
Causes
No one is sure what causes Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Sometimes, the person was abused as a child or has Munchausen syndrome (fake illness for themselves).
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