Leaked/breaking:Roe v. Wade expected to be overturned

[Timjoebillybob]

But it's my contention that if it's an objective moral, it had to predate the discovery of it. So it does not matter when it's recognized, other than we can't hold people responsible for not having the moral maturity of the current age.

And again, the problem I have with rights preceding morality, rights are dependent on right and wrong. I mean. if some morals are absolute. And rights derive from morals. Then the rights that derive from morals would also be absolute. But it sounds like you're making the case that regardless, if rights are absolute, then

Yes, I'm making the argument that some rights are inherent. Regardless of the morals or if they are recognized. As you said "My conclusion is the same as yours, that human rights are inherent and unalienable". If it is inherent and unalienable, it is not dependent on morals. I'll agree that morals are required to recognize those rights. From Merriam's definition of inherent "involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit".

Okay so does the squirrel have a right to life? That's a good question. I tend not to think in the same way humans do. Is there an underlying moral that would support such a right for squirrels? I think you might say morals are unnecessary for a squirrel to have rights. I don't think a right can stand without some absolute moral underpinning. So I'd say there would have to be some absolute moral truth that supports such a right. That feels subjective. I suppose I could make something up. But then I'd have to be a veeg. And I don't want to be a veeg. Not that I eat squirrel. That's a ****ing rodent. I don't eat rats either.

Yes I would say that morals are unnecessary for a squirrel to have the right to life. Now some peoples morals would prevent them from infringing on that right, some peoples wouldn't. I'm in the latter group. Squirrel is far from a staple on my menu but I've had it a time or two, it was pretty tasty. Same with cat and dog. I've heard young groundhog is good as well. Heck Guinea pig is a delicacy for some.

Or to put it this way, the squirrel has the right to attempt to feed itself, reproduce, and even defend itself in anyway it can. The eagle has those same rights, including by feeding itself and it's offspring said squirrel. No morals are required, it is the inherent right to life they have by nature.

 

[jamil]

I see it as a conflict if you agree with science that a two cell zygote is living and human but in the same breath you ask if they are "human enough?" My contention is if you agree with science that they are living and human then there is no such thing as "human enough"

Either they are recognized as living and human from that point on or they are not. If they are then by default they are intitled to their right to continue to live once it is established that they are already living and human.

What is it about a zygote’s stage of humanity that makes it of a moral importance above the Mother’s right to choose? I will agree that there is a stage when that becomes more apparent.

But I have to go back to what I originally said, I think that moral importance derives from your world view.

 

[Ingomike]

OMG! This debate still running…

 

[KG1]

What is it about a zygote’s stage of humanity that makes it of a moral importance above the Mother’s right to choose? I will agree that there is a stage when that becomes more apparent.

But I have to go back to what I originally said, I think that moral importance derives from your world view.

My part of the discussion is based on sciences definition that a zygote is both living and human which you and I agree with. My moral importance is then based from that point on once it has been established by science as a living human being and therefore by definition a zygote is worthy of continuing to evolve as a living human being.

It's been defined as already living and human. Why then should the mother have a moral right to terminate that development unless it poses a risk at that point concerning her own mortality? I just don't believe in your premise of "human enough"

 

[jamil]

Well, that’s the argument it looked to me like Chip was making. But it’s not science that makes you decide that it’s the right place to apply the right to that earliest stage. I understand the science too. And the science says, at least currently, the zygote doesn’t think, feel, etcetera, so at that point is there an objective reason to override the mother’s rights? You probably think there isn’t. And that an indicator that maybe it’s not so objective.

 

[KG1]

Well, that’s the argument it looked to me like Chip was making. But it’s not science that makes you decide that it’s the right place to apply the right to that earliest stage. I understand the science too. And the science says, at least currently, the zygote doesn’t think, feel, etcetera, so at that point is there an objective reason to override the mother’s rights? You probably think there isn’t. And that an indicator that maybe it’s not so objective.

My point is once it has been established to already be a living human being does a mother have a right to terminate further development at that stage?

Anway I'm not looking to re-hash a lengthy discussion between you and Chip. It's obvious that it's no closer to resolution than when it started no matter how many words are thrown at it. I said I was going to bow out of the discussion now look at me.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Okay. You asked for it.

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morbi lobortis laoreet semper rutrum placerat diam ligula suscipit nullam quis lorem amet nulla maecenas in felis litora leo sapien dictum at nisi inceptos augue blandit nunc accumsan ad tempor ut ornare ultrices gross.

I agree.

 

[KLB]

It's obvious that it's no closer to resolution than when it started no matter how many words are thrown at it. I said I was going to bow out of the discussion now look at me.

There will never be a resolution. I think that is the point to be taken away here.

People are going to have to decide if their feelings about this subject are strong enough to override their feelings about others, or if there is some kind of compromise position they are willing to accept. Is this a hill for Republicans to die on? I doubt you will get a majority to agree abortion should be illegal period.

 

[KG1]

There will never be a resolution. I think that is the point to be taken away here.

People are going to have to decide if their feelings about this subject are strong enough to override their feelings about others, or if there is some kind of compromise position they are willing to accept. Is this a hill for Republicans to die on? I doubt you will get a majority to agree abortion should be illegal period.

Edit: Never mind my response that I previously typed here. Let's just say I will always be all in on a right to life otherwise I am not staying true to my views.

I'm out.

 

[BigRed]

There will never be a resolution. I think that is the point to be taken away here.

Certainly, it is not a matter for the central state.

 

[bwframe]

Heard on the radio last night that SCOTUS is set to release a decision today.
May or may not be on the Roe vs Wade case.
Also speculation that the decision from the New York rifle and pistol club could be released today as well, but nothing definitive.

 

[Ingomike]

Certainly, it is not a matter for the central state.

Is murder a matter for the central state?

 

[BigRed]

Is murder a matter for the central state?

Please show in the constitution of the united States where it is.

 

[Ingomike]

Please show in the constitution of the united States where it is.

Consistency is all I can ask…

 

[BigRed]

Consistency is all I can ask…

If the central state adhered to the constitution and the states exercised their authority in enforcing it, this would be a much different place.

 

[Cameramonkey]

If the central state adhered to the constitution and the states exercised their authority in enforcing it, this would be a much different place.

And if the elite were subject to the same rules peons like us are, there would be MANY more powerful folks in jail.

You know, Like a kid takes a selfie with a top secret control panel in the background and he is thrown in the brig and court martialed. Hillary violates NUMEROUS violations of mishandling classified info, including it ending up in the personal inboxes of Huma and Weiner boy, and the latter three are never prosecuted. Mind boggling.


And dont get me started on the Lolita Express and how none of the Johns are being prosecuted.

There. Are. Two. Judicial. Systems.

 

[BigRed]

And if the elite were subject to the same rules peons like us are, there would be MANY more powerful folks in jail.

You know, Like a kid takes a selfie with a top secret control panel in the background and he is thrown in the brig and court martialed. Hillary violates NUMEROUS violations of mishandling classified info, including it ending up in the personal inboxes of Huma and Weiner boy, and the latter three are never prosecuted. Mind boggling.


And dont get me started on the Lolita Express and how none of the Johns are being prosecuted.

There. Are. Two. Judicial. Systems.

Tip of the tip of the tip of the berg.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Tip of the tip of the tip of the berg.

Disclaimer: Im not calling for insurrection. Thats against the board rules.

But things arent going to balance out without a French style revolution. Just saying that without one, there will be no level playing field until those in power are brought to justice. (and frankly I doubt it will ever get levelled.)

 

[BigRed]

Disclaimer: Im not calling for insurrection. Thats against the board rules.

But things arent going to balance out without a French style revolution. Just saying that without one, there will be no level playing field until those in power are brought to justice. (and frankly I doubt it will ever get levelled.)

"French style revolutions" do not turn out so well.
Not a proponent.

 

[Cameramonkey]

"French style revolutions" do not turn out so well.
Not a proponent.

Oh, I never said the outcome would be better. Just that its the only way it would stop the current shenanigans. You are correct, that it would likely be as bad in a different way. But there is a chance. (not one I really truly want to take)