City to install cameras that record license plate numbers

[Ingomike]

Nope, like all conspiracy theorists, looking in the wrong direction 100% of the time.

Wrong again I have been complaining and telling my reps that it is wrong for government to use third parties for what is illegal for them to do directly, particularly the credit bureaus, and likely have several posts on the topic here on this site over the years.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Lots of other cameras are floating around doing the same thing already, but most aren’t aware of it.

Including the Ring doorbell cameras (although not specifically reading license plates, they do provide another surveillance resource for police).

 

[Ingomike]

All that to say you don't want to be photographed in PUBLIC,
Even though it's 100% legal and stand up in courts...

The court rulings are outdated and need review. The aspirations of the Declaration Of Independence mentions life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as inalienable rights. If a half dozen neighbors decided to put out over 100 cameras aimed at an individuals home to monitor every minute of time spent on the property would an inalienable right be being abused?

 

[BigRed]

Added a post re: the right to be left alone here so as not to hijack the thread on cameras.

The Right to be Left Alone

Isn't that kinda like to mask or not mask? LOL Sure seems like a lot of INGOers are willing to tell me I have no right to be left alone when it comes to pandering to their virus fears. :dunno:

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[JeepHammer]

The court rulings are outdated and need review. The aspirations of the Declaration Of Independence mentions life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as inalienable rights. If a half dozen neighbors decided to put out over 100 cameras aimed at an individuals home to monitor every minute of time spent on the property would an inalienable right be being abused?

Actually, see current/recent court rulings.

You can NOT use a home camera to directly observe neighbors, and you CAN have law enforcement do something about it under the criminal code,
And you can sue the pants off the offender.

Now, the exemption to home cameras is safety & security, you CAN point your cameras at your own property, and public areas,
If you catch part of someone's yard, driveway, etc that's also legal.

What you CAN NOT do (without a warrant) is look into someone's home, record someone's movements "IN TOTAL" (legal wording), or conduct survalience on private property you don't own.

In the last case it was fussy neighbors with cameras on poles aimed into the neighbors fenced in back yard,
so Im guessing here,
The back yard was covered 'In Total', or at least enough for the judge to see what was going on with those households...

You can completely drop the preamble to the constitution, that's all BS when talking about video in public areas.
Smoke & Mirrors to deflect/distract.

There is no one STOPPING you from doing anything when video is in common/public areas, it's simple to identify someone breaking the laws.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The article mentions that the Wyoming cameras will not be used for traffic but for major crimes, maybe so. While I'm not a policeman, I have to ask how often "major crimes" are committed with stolen cars rendering the camera info moot.

Some. But that doesn't mean the information isn't useful. I'm sure reasonable minds can figure out how it might be handy to know that a given car has been in the area of multiple robberies within 10 minutes of their occurrence even if you don't yet know who's driving it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Got a demo of a license plate recognition system years ago when IPD (the real IPD) was considering using them mounted on police cars. An officer could drive down a street and the cameras would photograph every license plate he/she passed. It would attach date, time, and GPS data which would then be compared to an existing database of stolen or wanted vehicles. The rep told us it was originally developed for commercial parking garages, like at an airport, where you could park for a week, upon exiting claim you'd lost your ticket, and only be charged for 24 hours. They said airports were losing megabucks in parking fees. Don't know if the PD ever bought in.

Yes, but it's a subscription service and sometimes it's turned on and sometimes it isn't. Private parties have more and more betterer license plate readers than we do. I'm not really in the space, although I was exposed to it. From a quasi-outsiders point of view, repo companies are the cutting edge of the tech locally.

 

[dieselrealtor]

The article mentions that the Wyoming cameras will not be used for traffic but for major crimes, maybe so. While I'm not a policeman, I have to ask how often "major crimes" are committed with stolen cars rendering the camera info moot.

This reminds me of being told that they would not pull anyone over for not having a seat belt on, only if they are being pulled over for something else.

Open the door & it will get wider & wider

 

[BigRed]

This reminds me of being told that they would not pull anyone over for not having a seat belt on, only if they are being pulled over for something else.

Open the door & it will get wider & wider

Name one thing in which state inserts itself that does NOT follow that path.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I would tell you guys how many stolen/carjacked vehicles I've recovered and how many robberies/rapes/murders have had suspects/getaway vehicles identified with help of LPR cameras, but everyone already has their minds made up about their purpose, so I won't bother. LPR =/= red light or toll camera.

 

[Ingomike]

I would tell you guys how many stolen/carjacked vehicles I've recovered and how many robberies/rapes/murders have had suspects/getaway vehicles identified with help of LPR cameras, but everyone already has their minds made up about their purpose, so I won't bother. LPR =/= red light or toll camera.

I don’t believe anyone is saying that they cannot be used for good, just that they are questioning if that good outweighs the bad. Like the Franklin quote…

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.“ Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

 

[Jaybird1980]

I would tell you guys how many stolen/carjacked vehicles I've recovered and how many robberies/rapes/murders have had suspects/getaway vehicles identified with help of LPR cameras, but everyone already has their minds made up about their purpose, so I won't bother. LPR =/= red light or toll camera.

Actually I'm still curious. I also wonder if crimes committed with stolen vehicles end up with the vehicle getting ditched or do they tend to keep driving them afterwards?

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

I don’t believe anyone is saying that they cannot be used for good, just that they are questioning if that good outweighs the bad. Like the Franklin quote…

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.“ Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Believe whatever you want.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Actually I'm still curious. I also wonder if crimes committed with stolen vehicles end up with the vehicle getting ditched or do they tend to keep driving them afterwards?

Depends. Lately the cars are being used in multiple crimes.

 

[retyree98]

I'm guessing this won't be taken well...

The vehicle is supposed to be properly tagged (plated).
That's the law you agreed to when you got a driver's licence (a privilege, not a 'Right').

Those plates are supposed to be clearly visible, space for the plate provided by the manufacturer to keep you legal.
It couldn't be more simple.

Anything in the public domain (roadways, public access parking spaces, etc.)
It's clearly legal to video.

.......

*IF* you aren't doing anything illegal, why is it a problem with you?

.......

You all complain about crime, particularly crimes against persons, but you complain when a tool is available that will help solve, or potentially reduce those crimes?

It seems to be schizophrenic thinking (at best) to first want crime reduced, or solved,
Then complain about tools that will allow law enforcement to do just that very thing...

You DEMAND things change, crimes get solved, then turn right around and demand law enforcement does it *YOUR* way...

It's not about *YOU*,
And you can't have it both ways.

.......

As to "Big Brother" watching *YOUR* every move...

Get over yourself, you just aren't that important.

No reason to give you the first thought if you aren't doing something illegal.
There are thousands of hours of video of most people going about the business of normal life, and no one gives a crap in the slightest...

It's actually a pain in the butt to have so many average people in the frame when they are trying to catch criminals...
From privacy rights to storage media space, to eyeballs to figure out the difference.

I have deleted thousands of hours of video of just average folks from my small security system simply because they weren't doing anything illegal (or interesting).

There is an entire industry in the billions of dollars just trying to filter the average folks OUT of video so they can concentrate on criminals.
(See every video security company in the world)

This makes me think there are ulterior motives involved,
From paranoia (mental illness), thinking they are so important the NSA/CIA/FBI is tracking their every move,
(The tin foil hat bunch)

To shady people doing sketchy stuff not wanting to get caught...

Tell that to the Jan 6 people rotting in jail without due process just for attending a political event. Or those who were harassed or lost their jobs over their phone being traced as being there. Sometimes the Schizoid is seeing real monsters.

 

[retyree98]

OK, hopefully back on topic.

Zionsville and Boone County are both using the license plate scanning cameras. In the case of Zionsville they are trying to capture essentially all entry points to the town.

I have had a long discussion with both Chief Spears and Sheriff Neilsen regarding license plate scanners and their use. Both were able to provide specific references to events where the cameras played a direct role in capturing criminals and keeping drugs out of our community.

Ultimately I told each gentleman that we would have to agree to disagree. While I understood their desire for the technology and the utility of the data; my knowledge of electronics, computers, networks, and the corporate world did not allow me to endorse license plate readers. Such technology CAN be used for good, and I believe each departments use is honorable. Unfortunately they don't actually "own" the technology, the networks, the databases, or have actual physical control over the storage or transmission means. Therefore, even though they may have a contract which states the data is secure and deleted after 30 days they have absolutely no way to know or to control the security of the data.

The harsh reality is all users of license plate reader technology are feeding the metadata repositories for any bad actors, domestic or foreign, who access the data. After what I saw the STASI were able to do with pen and paper regarding meta-data on East German citizens, the answer to all such technology is NO.

Speed cameras, red light cameras? ABSOLUTELY NOT! If I can't meet and cross examine my accuser (not the officer which rubber stamped a citation printed out from a database), then the technology is a NO GO. Personally I am extremely impressed with what Sylvain showed the French doing. That should have happened here.

I was told by a local LEO, when pulled over because he wanted to know who I was and where I had been and where I was going, that if one stopped enough cars, one would eventually find drugs in one. It's a numbers thing, is how he put it. I believe too many people have that belief.
I think he changed his mind after many complaints to the Morgan County Sheriff.

The cameras are infringing on our privacy without probable cause. Some laws equate being in ones car as the same as being in ones home. I would think that following and documenting my location should be done in most cases with a warrant. For the LEO's involved, I understand there can be circumstances where this could be waived.

 

[Nazgul]

Maintained the industrial equipment at a large factory for years. They had extensive cameras in all the parking areas. Someone ran into my company vehicle and left. Went to the security office and they had no saved record of anything even though it was within direct camera view all the time, you could see it on the monitor.

What they did have saved was literally hours of people having sex in the vehicles during work hours.....

Because it was minor my company decided to just fix it instead of irritating a very good company.

Don

 

[Nazgul]

I don’t believe anyone is saying that they cannot be used for good, just that they are questioning if that good outweighs the bad. Like the Franklin quote…

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.“ Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Really, if you our a loved one was robbed/raped/killed would you think "Well let them go because the video footage was too invasive to their privacy"?

Don

 

[jsharmon7]

I was told by a local LEO, when pulled over because he wanted to know who I was and where I had been and where I was going, that if one stopped enough cars, one would eventually find drugs in one. It's a numbers thing, is how he put it. I believe too many people have that belief.
I think he changed his mind after many complaints to the Morgan County Sheriff.

The cameras are infringing on our privacy without probable cause. Some laws equate being in ones car as the same as being in ones home. I would think that following and documenting my location should be done in most cases with a warrant. For the LEO's involved, I understand there can be circumstances where this could be waived.

He doesn’t sound like a very good officer. There are a number of indicators of criminal activity to look for that will boost the ratio of arrests and stops. If he’s just out stopping every violation hoping to get lucky, he’s doing it wrong.

No warrant is needed to scan plates because there’s no expectation of privacy with a government issued license plate in public view on the back of your vehicle. There’s also more to it than an officer just logging into a database and saying “I wonder where all Bob went today.” There are way too many crimes to investigate to waste time seeing where you went yesterday. Your phone tracks a ton more info about you than scattered LPR cameras through the city anyway. It’s telling multiple entities everything about you, all the time. Your Kroger card, Amazon account, etc. are probably invading your privacy more than an LPR.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Want the capability, don't want the abuse. A bridge too far?