City to install cameras that record license plate numbers

[KLB]

I doubt there's any point in us discussing it further since you've already assigned me such a ridiculous position. Who would equate not minding people recording me entering THEIR store to having no privacy at all. I understand the difference between "public place" and "private place". Additionally I understand "my property" and "not my property".

Probably not. You are both talking down to the other.

 

[jsharmon7]

It’s an interesting topic. Where’s the line when it comes to the expectation of privacy in public? The courts have sometimes said there’s very little expectation of privacy in public, especially when it comes to driving on public roads. LE can run your plate for no reason, and can act on information they learn from it. The presence of Flock cameras is increasing in central Indiana but I’ve not heard of any challenges to them. Baltimore was conducting wide-area, persistent surveillance with an airplane, but the courts ruled that was unconstitutional. Was the difference they were watching the movements of everyone rather than just reading plates? I think those are very different situations, but it shows there is at least some expectation of privacy in public places.

 

[bwframe]

...The presence of Flock cameras is increasing in central Indiana but I’ve not heard of any challenges to them...

I don't know where the price point falls, but if it's like other penalties or fines issued, it's not worth paying for the legal or inconvenience battle. Even not paying a lawyer, there is taking time off work, parking, un-gunning in sketchy areas, leaving SD gear in vehicle at risk, etc.

Smaller scale and different deal, but I got a parking ticket from downtown Indy some years back. I wasn't there, so I wanted to contend it. Against my better judgement, I went ahead and paid the ticket. It just wasn't worth everything involved in getting it done.

 

[qwerty]

Again, these are not red light or speed cameras. See my previous post for details.

 

[manifest destiny]

Sales pitch for LPR...

LPR Software - 5 Myths Debunked in 2022 | Plate Recognizer ALPR

Does using LPR software mean buying all new cameras? Is it only for business use? Is it expensive? We address these license plate reader software myths common in 2022.

platerecognizer.com

From the sales pitch... Emphasis by me.

Myth #5 – LPR Software Only Works When Vehicles are on Police Hotlists​

Sometimes people think license plate recognition software will only give you results if a license plate has been placed on a police hotlist. That’s not the case.


"This misconception might come from the experience people have when they’ve been pulled over and the officer “runs their plates.” In that situation, they receive information on the vehicle’s registration status, the registered owner, current warrants, alerts if the vehicle or plates have been stolen and other information. It’s useful information for law enforcement, but our LPR software isn’t restricted to giving information on vehicles that have had their plates run by law enforcement.

The software works by simply recognizing the letters and numbers on license plates. It can also provide the make, model and color of the vehicle. You get accurate data even if the vehicle has never been pulled over, wanted in connection with a crime or placed on a hotlist."

LPR's are abusive. They collect AND KEEP data. Even when there is no exigent purpose. No privacy expected in public is a far cry from being continually tracked while in public. I think KellyInAvon said it best, we want the good guys to win. We don't want each of us to be looked at/ sniffed by law enforcement due to proximity. If a one-armed robber knocks off a 7-11, should we review everybody in the area even if they have two arms? Stand alone LPR's, tracking constantly is nothing more than surveillance without a warrant.

 

[KLB]

It’s an interesting topic. Where’s the line when it comes to the expectation of privacy in public? The courts have sometimes said there’s very little expectation of privacy in public, especially when it comes to driving on public roads. LE can run your plate for no reason, and can act on information they learn from it. The presence of Flock cameras is increasing in central Indiana but I’ve not heard of any challenges to them. Baltimore was conducting wide-area, persistent surveillance with an airplane, but the courts ruled that was unconstitutional. Was the difference they were watching the movements of everyone rather than just reading plates? I think those are very different situations, but it shows there is at least some expectation of privacy in public places.

It is indeed.

Can an officer just follow someone and record their movements? In essence it would seem that a number of these things could be used to do that.

 

[jsharmon7]

It is indeed.

Can an officer just follow someone and record their movements? In essence it would seem that a number of these things could be used to do that.

You need a warrant to put a GPS tracker on a car.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I don't know where the price point falls, but if it's like other penalties or fines issued, it's not worth paying for the legal or inconvenience battle. Even not paying a lawyer, there is taking time off work, parking, un-gunning in sketchy areas, leaving SD gear in vehicle at risk, etc.

Smaller scale and different deal, but I got a parking ticket from downtown Indy some years back. I wasn't there, so I wanted to contend it. Against my better judgement, I went ahead and paid the ticket. It just wasn't worth everything involved in getting it done.

Flock is a private company and does not issue any sort of fines or penalties.

Flock Safety | Safety for every situation

From creating safer neighborhoods to protecting employees and property, we help you deter and solve crime with tools customized and scaled to your needs.

www.flocksafety.com

Clients range from gov't entities to HOAs to repo/wrecker services.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It is indeed.

Can an officer just follow someone and record their movements? In essence it would seem that a number of these things could be used to do that.

Yes. As can a private citizen. People hire PIs to follow and record their spouse when they think they are cheating (hint: if you are that suspicious, they are.). Cops follow people covertly as well. I've been part of covert robbery surveillance, and it tends to be incredibly boring. GPS devices are used more commonly these days, of course. You still have to physically follow them, especially if you don't know who's actually using the car, but at least you don't have to sit off it while it's stationary.

At least in Indiana, you need a warrant to attach a GPS and it will be for a set period of time. In Kentucky, you did not if the GPS had it's own power source. Kentucky courts did not consider it a search or seizure unless you manipulated the vehicle, such as wiring a GPS into it's power supply (old school GPS units). A magnet stuck to something wasn't a search or a seizure. I don't know if that's still the case since I have no reason to care about Kentucky case law these days.

 

[manifest destiny]

Yes. As can a private citizen. People hire PIs to follow and record their spouse when they think they are cheating (hint: if you are that suspicious, they are.). Cops follow people covertly as well. I've been part of covert robbery surveillance, and it tends to be incredibly boring. GPS devices are used more commonly these days, of course. You still have to physically follow them, especially if you don't know who's actually using the car, but at least you don't have to sit off it while it's stationary.

At least in Indiana, you need a warrant to attach a GPS and it will be for a set period of time. In Kentucky, you did not if the GPS had it's own power source. Kentucky courts did not consider it a search or seizure unless you manipulated the vehicle, such as wiring a GPS into it's power supply (old school GPS units). A magnet stuck to something wasn't a search or a seizure. I don't know if that's still the case since I have no reason to care about Kentucky case law these days.

But can LEO's follow everybody around, all the time? It's akin to flying a camera over property that cannot be seen with the naked eye. The courts have largely stated no to that. It's akin taking a drug sniffing k9 to every front door within an apartment complex looking for drugs. Hearing a toilet flush after aggressive, mean-ass fluffy sits down in front of the door and charging in per reasonable suspicion. Again the courts have stated no to such tactics. LPR's are an abusive tool to those of us who aren't jacking cars to commit crimes. You know what would really, really, really work? We could assign an LEO to each and every household, inside and out. Then there'd be no crime.

 

[actaeon277]

Maintained the industrial equipment at a large factory for years. They had extensive cameras in all the parking areas. Someone ran into my company vehicle and left. Went to the security office and they had no saved record of anything even though it was within direct camera view all the time, you could see it on the monitor.

What they did have saved was literally hours of people having sex in the vehicles during work hours.....

Because it was minor my company decided to just fix it instead of irritating a very good company.

Don

Well, they gotta have their priorities.

And sex in the car?
Must be cheating. Because I'm too broken to have sex in a car.
I use the car to bring them home.

Jeez

 

[K_W]

We have had LPRs in Indy for a while, Carmel has a cruiser with 6 of them... for some reason, somebody is REALLY interested in one of the I70 ramps near Lucas Oil.

It was always my understanding that RLCs and SCs were not enforceable in Indiana... and that seems to be the case according to this...

Indiana Red Light Cameras Map

Indiana Red Light Cameras Map - Fines $100+. Automated Photo Enforcement Locations.

www.photoenforced.com

This also further reinforces my hatred of the Chicago area.

 

[manifest destiny]

If lawmen setup cameras to issue fines, to be paid in cash, it's no longer about safety.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But can LEO's follow everybody around, all the time? It's akin to flying a camera over property that cannot be seen with the naked eye. The courts have largely stated no to that. It's akin taking a drug sniffing k9 to every front door within an apartment complex looking for drugs. Hearing a toilet flush after aggressive, mean-ass fluffy sits down in front of the door and charging in per reasonable suspicion. Again the courts have stated no to such tactics. LPR's are an abusive tool to those of us who aren't jacking cars to commit crimes. You know what would really, really, really work? We could assign an LEO to each and every household, inside and out. Then there'd be no crime.

What LPR is where the naked eye can't see? What courts? Everyone from the news to police helicopters to search/rescue drones routinely fly over both public and private property with cameras.

Are you asking legally or functionally about following everyone? I guess maybe I'm not getting the question.

 

[manifest destiny]

What LPR is where the naked eye can't see? What courts? Everyone from the news to police helicopters to search/rescue drones routinely fly over both public and private property with cameras.

Are you asking legally or functionally about following everyone? I guess maybe I'm not getting the question.

Functionally. Law cannot possibly follow all public, all the time. Cameras taking the place of LEO eyeballs has been met with mixed results in the courts. A heli over a car chase is a far f'n cry from recording my plates while I drop off kids at school. Bleul's, using cameras to capture what you could otherwise not be able to capture is wrong. If all-recordings all-the-time is superior, why did law enforcement reject the idea? Why don't cop's want to be recorded? The same reason the rest of don't want to be recorded.

 

[wcd]

Functionally. Law cannot possibly follow all public, all the time. Cameras taking the place of LEO eyeballs has been met with mixed results in the courts. A heli over a car chase is a far f'n cry from recording my plates while I drop off kids at school. Bleul's, using cameras to capture what you could otherwise not be able to capture is wrong. If all-recordings all-the-time is superior, why did law enforcement reject the idea? Why don't cop's want to be recorded? The same reason the rest of don't want to be recorded.

So asking for clarification here, so you position is if a LPR system notifies a local agency that a vehicle is on a hot list it’s a bad thing and it is wrong to use the tools available to apprehend a rapist, car thief, suspected kidnapper with a 14 year old girl because in the absence of a camera said individuals would have passed through the area undetected?

 

[manifest destiny]

So asking for clarification here, so you position is if a LPR system notifies a local agency that a vehicle is on a hot list it’s a bad thing and it is wrong to use the tools available to apprehend a rapist, car thief, suspected kidnapper with a 14 year old girl because in the absence of a camera said individuals would have passed through the area undetected?

My God. I hope you're not an leo.

 

[wcd]

My God. I hope you're not an leo.

Not really sure what vocation has to do with the question? I was simply asking for clarification.

 

[Ingomike]

So asking for clarification here, so you position is if a LPR system notifies a local agency that a vehicle is on a hot list it’s a bad thing and it is wrong to use the tools available to apprehend a rapist, car thief, suspected kidnapper with a 14 year old girl because in the absence of a camera said individuals would have passed through the area undetected?

I don’t believe anyone is saying that they cannot be used for good, just that they are questioning if that good outweighs the bad. Like the Franklin quote…

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.“ Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

It has been answered.

Now are you for giving up essential liberty for temporary safety?

 

[wcd]

What LPR is where the naked eye can't see? What courts? Everyone from the news to police helicopters to search/rescue drones routinely fly over both public and private property with cameras.

Are you asking legally or functionally about following everyone? I guess maybe I'm not getting the question.

Not sure how things are being done In Indiana or if it varies by jurisdictions? But in one county here in Tennessee, which I have first knowledge a specific city posted locations of the LPR’s complete with street names and intersection.

Further to your point Google routinely canvasses and records data images etc for their street view, which I am fairly certain is retained for longer than 90 days!