How the ATF, Key to Biden's Gun Plan, Became an NRA 'Whipping Boy'

[drillsgt]

Yeah, probably. At least five years ago he would have been near the center of the big tent, like me.


However, that tent has been getting increasingly smaller as more and more people have been kicked out for not passing the new purity standards. This makes Republicans more "true conservatives", but it also decreases the Republican voting block to point where elections are unwinnable.


EDIT: Have you seen a post from CampingJosh call for gun control, higher taxes, more LGBTQIA rights, increased welfare, govt healthcare, open borders, or anything else the Dems are pushing? No? Then why would you call him a Democrat?

So basically you want the Republican party to be full of Rino's? That's good to hear about campingjosh, if Trump doesn't run in 2024 then we'll have him back on the Republican side.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Yeah, probably. At least five years ago he would have been near the center of the big tent, like me.


However, that tent has been getting increasingly smaller as more and more people have been kicked out for not passing the new purity standards. This makes Republicans more "true conservatives", but it also decreases the Republican voting block to point where elections are unwinnable.


EDIT: Have you seen a post from CampingJosh call for gun control, higher taxes, more LGBTQIA rights, increased welfare, govt healthcare, open borders, or anything else the Dems are pushing? No? Then why would you call him a Democrat?

It might have something to do with supporting a sworn enemy because he dislikes Trump on account of personality and supporting a voting system that guarantees D control in perpetuity.

 

[Kutnupe14]

So basically you want the Republican party to be full of Rino's? That's good to hear about campingjosh, if Trump doesn't run in 2024 then we'll have him back on the Republican side.

I’d challenge your idea of RINOs. To me, Trumpers are RINOs. They’ve abandoned quite a bit of traditional Republican tenets to pledge fealty to Trump. I’ve voted Republican more than once, but won’t as long as Trump is considered the model for Republicanism. The way the party attacked Cheney, is just crazy. That chick IS a real Republican, and die-hard conservative, and yet she’s being run out of town simply because she sees Trump for who he really is.

 

[jamil]

The media's portrayal doesn't really matter here on INGO. In fact, it's"opposite day". CNN paints someone was a wolf? We see them as a shepherd.

Trump spent most of his live cozying up democrat elites, but come election time, suddenly he's a conservative quoting passages from "Two Corinthians".


However, actions are louder than words, and for the most part, Trump's actions were quite conservative. So for me on election day, it was, "Well he might be a goose, but he walks like a duck, and talks like a duck... and the other guy is clearly a not a duck but a loon..."

I generally agree except the media's portrayal is relevant when it informs someone of facts that aren't true. And that is the basis of the "TDS" comments against the gun owning Biden voters. It's not all TDS, but it is a little. They have a perspective that's not accurate and they use that perspective to decide at the polls.

 

[JettaKnight]

So basically you want the Republican party to be full of Rino's? That's good to hear about campingjosh, if Trump doesn't run in 2024 then we'll have him back on the Republican side.

So you've replaced the TDS straw man with the RINO straw man?
I've been consistent in my opinion that the "Don't inconvenience me" and ultra-right wing of the GOP are the true RINOs; in some ways they seem more aligned with libertarians.

It might have something to do with supporting a sworn enemy because he dislikes Trump on account of personality and supporting a voting system that guarantees D control in perpetuity.

If you're of the opinion that the election was stolen, then you're likely to remain that way next time the GOP loses. This seems incongruous with the conservative belief of accepting personal responsibility. Rather than simply accept that the majority of Americans don't want what the GOP offered, some have chose to deflect and blame others.

 

[JettaKnight]

I generally agree except the media's portrayal is relevant when it informs someone of facts that aren't true. And that is the basis of the "TDS" comments against the gun owning Biden voters. It's not all TDS, but it is a little. They have a perspective that's not accurate and they use that perspective to decide at the polls.

Yeah, perhaps.

Is it TDS to say, "I think Donald Trump is not fit for office", and then lay out a list of reasons and a cogent argument?

Now my wife, "Well Trump's just a jerk." That's TDS.

 

[foszoe]

One question should a valid ID be required to vote?

The same ID presented in the 1700s and 1800s and 1900s...

Not sure which one they had to present though.

 

[jamil]

He is entitled to his own opinions but not his own facts. If he cannot accept the fraud caught dead to rights, which has been caught basically by accident in a very porous system, and objects to measures to make fraud more difficult while crying about excessive difficulty in moving away from doing things in a way based entirely on the honor system, we are too far apart for me to consider his position reasonable.

Any fool should be able to see that you cannot have honest elections without accountability. I see no productive end in arguing with this level of stupidity.

Okay, but that doesn't make him a liar. People are skeptical of the fraud claims. And maybe that's because their worldview makes such information harder to accept while yours makes it easy. That's not dishonesty.

But I get that the two sides are too far apart to consider each other's position reasonable. What I see is that people don't look at both side's considerations, and acknowledge all the things that are true about them. I mean, he prioritizes the right to vote, and is concerned that everyone who should get to vote won't get to vote if you make it too hard. You prioritize the need to have safeguards to insure elections have integrity/accountability, and your concern is that if you make it too easy, then it makes it more possible to manipulate the elections to have an actual impact on the outcome.

I'd like to see Josh address the accountability issue. I'd like to see you address the issue of access to voting. Okay, so what if we tried a thought experiment where you try to figure out how to solve Josh's problem in a way that he would agree with. And then he would figure out how to solve your problem in a way that you would agree with.

I'm not holding my breath that that could even happen, or be scaled society-wide so that we make real solutions rather than talking past each other. And then there's the bigger problem of partisan politicians and influencers trying to win power by driving people into their respective fringes.

 

[BugI02]

I think claiming that those people are directly responsible for whatever gun control comes is not accurate. And claiming that all Democrats are the same is inaccurate. The former criticism is more of an indictment on the behavior. The latter is more of a personal attack and isn’t productive.

What level of accuracy do you require? How granular must any indictment of Democrat/progressive thought be in order to satisfy you? Is it possible to state a PERFECTLY accurate description of the motivations of another, succinctly?

This seems another of those trivial proofs, of course inaccuracies can be found in any synopsis. But are they meaningful inaccuracies. Please start by listing all of the Democratic politicians on the national stage who have come out against gun control/limitation of the 2A. It shouldn't take long

Weren't you the one who said 'If it looks like you're hiding something, Imma' goin' to think you're hiding something'? Is that calling for an unchallengeable degree of accuracy or just one that satisfies your own personal criteria? Not only should we not get bogged down in excessive nuance, but perhaps you should overtly acknowledge that, while the standards of others for concluding certain judgements may not perfectly overlap yours, there are occasions where they are quite possibly correct? IMO the Democrats are intent on wielding their razor thin margins as if they were a mandate and don't seem to particularly care who gets caught up in the gears. I also believe when the pendulum swings back, we should govern in the same way rather than get caught up in 'We're Better Than That®' which is just another failed, defeatist way to rationalize not reversing to the extent possible the horrific changes that Biden has and will enact. Accurate enough?

 

[jamil]

I’d challenge your idea of RINOs. To me, Trumpers are RINOs. They’ve abandoned quite a bit of traditional Republican tenets to pledge fealty to Trump. I’ve voted Republican more than once, but won’t as long as Trump is considered the model for Republicanism. The way the party attacked Cheney, is just crazy. That chick IS a real Republican, and die-hard conservative, and yet she’s being run out of town simply because she sees Trump for who he really is.

The problem I usually have with Republicans is the chamber-o-commerce ones who pretend to be pro-gun so that they can keep their NRA ratings high in red states. I think the truth about Trump is somewhere between the Trumper version of the Messiah, and the TDS version of litereally Hitler. The way he actually governed, aside from all the stupid **** he said, was actually fairly conservative. I dunno. Maybe that was under the influence of Pence, but I doubt that he was influenced too much because Pence is one of those chamber-o-commerce Republicans. And so is Liz Cheney. And her dad is the offspring of Satan.

 

[BugI02]

How do you address "I voted for Biden. I dont endorse any of his positions, but I would gladly vote for him again"?

With a white jacket with really long sleeves that tie in the back?

 

[jamil]

Yeah, perhaps.

Is it TDS to say, "I think Donald Trump is not fit for office", and then lay out a list of reasons and a cogent argument?

Now my wife, "Well Trump's just a jerk." That's TDS.

I think it's an opinion. I didn't say it wasn't a cogent argument. It was an argument that required the premises to be true, and many were premises based on a perception of reality and not reality itself. TDS can do that. But I'm not saying it was TDS. I can see why people would think so.

EDIT: On second thought it wasn't a cogent argument. It wasn't deductive, but to be cogent the premise must be true enough to produce a probability of being true. So based on that technicality, I'm rescinding the implication that the argument was cogent.

 

[drillsgt]

So you've replaced the TDS straw man with the RINO straw man?
I've been consistent in my opinion that the "Don't inconvenience me" and ultra-right wing of the GOP are the true RINOs; in some ways they seem more aligned with libertarians.

If you're of the opinion that the election was stolen, then you're likely to remain that way next time the GOP loses. This seems incongruous with the conservative belief of accepting personal responsibility. Rather than simply accept that the majority of Americans don't want what the GOP offered, some have chose to deflect and blame others.

If the strawman fits lol...

 

[jamil]

The same ID presented in the 1700s and 1800s and 1900s...

Not sure which one they had to present though.

Is that what's been enacted or proposed?

 

[jamil]

What level of accuracy do you require? How granular must any indictment of Democrat/progressive thought be in order to satisfy you? Is it possible to state a PERFECTLY accurate description of the motivations of another, succinctly?

This seems another of those trivial proofs, of course inaccuracies can be found in any synopsis. But are they meaningful inaccuracies. Please start by listing all of the Democratic politicians on the national stage who have come out against gun control/limitation of the 2A. It shouldn't take long

Weren't you the one who said 'If it looks like you're hiding something, Imma' goin' to think you're hiding something'? Is that calling for an unchallengeable degree of accuracy or just one that satisfies your own personal criteria? Not only should we not get bogged down in excessive nuance, but perhaps you should overtly acknowledge that, while the standards of others for concluding certain judgements may not perfectly overlap yours, there are occasions where they are quite possibly correct? IMO the Democrats are intent on wielding their razor thin margins as if they were a mandate and don't seem to particularly care who gets caught up in the gears. I also believe when the pendulum swings back, we should govern in the same way rather than get caught up in 'We're Better Than That®' which is just another failed, defeatist way to rationalize not reversing to the extent possible the horrific changes that Biden has and will enact. Accurate enough?

I'd like better resolution than 1 bit binary. Maybe something that with enough resolution to recognize as at least an analog of reality. And I think the saying is something closer to, "if they act like they're hiding something, it's fair to suspect that they're hiding something." It's not proof. It's enough to get one eager to get to the bottom of it.

 

[jamil]

With a white jacket with really long sleeves that tie in the back?

Okay. That was funny.

 

[BugI02]

The same ID presented in the 1700s and 1800s and 1900s...

Not sure which one they had to present though.

Seems a tad disingenuous. You are harkening back to a day when simply being 'Ingmar Thorvaldsson' was enough to positively identify someone, a time when every person could be recognized on sight by others from his neighborhood. Mayberry is closed for renovations

 

[jamil]

So you've replaced the TDS straw man with the RINO straw man?
I've been consistent in my opinion that the "Don't inconvenience me" and ultra-right wing of the GOP are the true RINOs; in some ways they seem more aligned with libertarians.

If you're of the opinion that the election was stolen, then you're likely to remain that way next time the GOP loses. This seems incongruous with the conservative belief of accepting personal responsibility. Rather than simply accept that the majority of Americans don't want what the GOP offered, some have chose to deflect and blame others.

That has nothing to do with the principle of accepting personal responsibility. It's simply an issue of belief. It's not just stamping one's feet just because they lost. They believe the election was stolen. Also, was it that the majority of Americans didn't want what the GOP offered, or was it that the majority of Americans didn't what what the media portrayed as what the GOP offered?

I've listened to the straw man the press erected against Republicans. Mostly ********.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The same ID presented in the 1700s and 1800s and 1900s...

Not sure which one they had to present though.

THIS, rights don't have increasing standards to be expressed. The "well someone my engage in fraud" isn't that much different from "a bad person might shoot people" argument that anti-2A people believe.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Seems a tad disingenuous. You are harkening back to a day when simply being 'Ingmar Thorvaldsson' was enough to positively identify someone, a time when every person could be recognized on sight by others from his neighborhood. Mayberry is closed for renovations

Perhaps you don't know this, but no state required a govt issued photo ID to vote prior to 2006. Indiana being the first. Look it up.