[DGU] The 'Defensive Gun Use' Thread

[Alamo]

Jerusalem, Israel.

So this is more of a "defensive gun non-use" (DGNU, I guess). Hard to use your firearm in defense if it is not loaded.


12 soldiers wounded, 1 seriously, in suspected terror car-ramming in Jerusalem

At least 12 soldiers were wounded, including one seriously, in a suspected car-ramming terror attack in Jerusalem early Thursday [06 Feb] morning, police and medics said.


The incident occurred shortly before 2 a.m. on Jerusalem’s David Remez Street near the First Station, a popular entertainment hub. Police said the driver of the vehicle fled the scene and “a large force of officers were carrying out searches.”


...


It did not appear that the soldiers were able to shoot at the driver during or after the attack, [IDF Spokesperson] Zilberman said.


“This happened in seconds. We understand that some soldiers tried to put magazines into their guns and tried to go after the car, but this happened quickly,” he told reporters.

 

[actaeon277]

Waiting for the calls to ban cars

 

[Alamo]

Conroe, Texas, or thereabouts:


CONROE MAN DEAD AFTER SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING ? Montgomery County Police Reporter


This happened last Jun 29th, but I just now became aware of it and don't believe it's been posted here.


The link goes to a story with the police press release. All other stories I could find are about the initial incident and largely regurgitate the press release. I can find no follow-up stories.


The police press release (the erroneous apostrophes are in the original):

On June 29, 2019, at about 1:00 pm, Conroe Police Officers were dispatched to 265 Lake Meadows Drive in reference to a call of a dead body. Officers found one deceased male from several gunshot wounds. The suspect, Lawrence Mahon, and his wife, Glynna Mahon were at the scene with the victim. They were both interviewed about what had occurred. Through the course of the interviews, it was determined this incident had stemmed from an on-going business feud between the Mahon’s and the victim. The Mahon’s came to the storage facility to check on a few of their units because they feared the victim was stealing from them.


During a verbal altercation, the victim began driving his golf cart around and struck Glynna, in an attempt to run her over. Lawrence, having an open carry license, confronted the victim and at some point, the victim got off of the golf cart and charged at him. Lawrence advised he was in fear for his safety and fired several rounds toward the victim.


After conducting interviews of both Mahon's and consulting with the Montgomery County District Attorney’s Office, it was determined that no charges would be filed at this time. The case will be referred to the Grand Jury. The Conroe Police Department has no further information to release at this time.


The identity of the victim is being withheld until next of kin can be notified.

I find it odd that the police refer to an "open carry license," a phrase that all the media accounts picked up. Texas originally had a "Concealed Handgun License," which became the "License to Carry" when open carry became legal. The open carry thing has confused a lot of people.


This story
https://www.khou.com/article/news/c...-say/285-8a7e5817-ad4b-4ccd-af06-43a6e6a1e634


identifies the Mahons as the owners of the storage facility. Since there was a "business dispute" and the deceased was on a golf cart, I am guessing that he may have been the manager. Other stories identify him as James Robert Hixson, 69.

 

[Alamo]

Cincinnati Ohio


Happened in June 2019


https://www.cincinnati.com/story/ne...r-shot-partner-charged-his-murder/1587257001/


https://local12.com/news/local/teen...-court-for-alleged-robbery-accomplices-murder


Two 15 year olds, both armed with guns, tried to rob a woman at 5 am on Sat 22 Jun 19. She pulled her own gun and fired, killing one of the teens. The surviving robber was arrested and charged with murder and aggravated robbery. Prosecutors pressed to have him tried in adult court because he used a gun and was already on probation, but after some hearings the judge ruled he would be tried as a juvenile. The juveniles' names are out there, but as far as I can find the woman's name hasn't been publicized.

 

[actaeon277]

[video=youtube;fmR35NNldEA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmR35NNldEA&app=desktop&persist_app=1[/video]

 

[Alamo]

Austin, Texas

I was looking at something else on the Austin Stateman website when I noticed a small headline at the very top "Two Killed, One Injured in northeast Austin break-in". I've noticed that initial reports of what appear to be self-defense incidents often do not mention self-defense in anyway, just "One killed in robbery" or some such and only upon reading do you find out the clerk bagged a robber.


In this case https://www.statesman.com/news/20200219/2-killed-1-injured-in-northeast-austin-break-in-police-say

Investigators determined that three suspects entered an apartment at the Creekside on Parmer Lane complex around 10:30 p.m. and two homeowners inside responded by firing shots at the group, said Austin police Officer Bino Cadenas.

Possibly all three suspects were hit, as two were DOS and one taken to hospital with non-life threatening injuries.


Police still investigating, and it could turn out differently, but sure sounds like a legit home SD situation at first pass.

 

[Alamo]

[video=youtube;fmR35NNldEA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmR35NNldEA&app=desktop&persist_app=1[/video]

From news story:

... Store employees say it is the second time in two months this overnight clerk has been robbed.


...


"We don't forsee any charges to this employee," said Duluth Police Officer Ted Sadowski, "because he was fearing for his life and he was acting in self-defense."

https://www.11alive.com/article/new...ilant/85-37eeecf6-844c-4e9e-8261-63291df4d8f0

 

[actaeon277]

https://concealednation.org/2020/02...HqDtVxDTqy6Ph0EwojBI-Mo5m7OF6CjVMW2ADYQTI6QTs
Dad Fatally Shoots Man Following And Harassing His Family Outside Restaurant

Apparently he had been known to harass staff, and panhandle customers in the parking lot. He would often get angry when people refused to give him money.

On this particular night, Hicks brand of panhandling would end up getting him killed. He spotted his next target and went after family for some money. When dad rebuked him, Hicks became angry an aggressive.

 

[2A_Tom]

I have mixed feelings on this one. A show of force may have gotten him to back off. Was the actually a record of the panhandler actually battering people or did he just bark.

I had an incident in Chicago across the street from the Biograph Theater (where Dillinger was killed) where three long haired hippy freaks were harassing a young lady. I stepped in, puffed myself up and gave them a hard look. They backed off and gave us no more trouble.

Pshew! Was I relieved.

 

[Dead Duck]

I have mixed feelings on this one. A show of force may have gotten him to back off. Was the actually a record of the panhandler actually battering people or did he just bark.

I had an incident in Chicago across the street from the Biograph Theater (where Dillinger was killed) where three long haired hippy freaks were harassing a young lady. I stepped in, puffed myself up and gave them a hard look. They backed off and gave us no more trouble.

Pshew! Was I relieved.

What exactly is "Puffed Myself Up"?

 

[actaeon277]

My thought is, if he's threatening violence, I have to believe it.
Maybe "puffing himself up" woulda worked.
Maybe, him being so close, he'd have knifed you, then moved on to your family.

I understand we're playing with "maybe".
But we weren't in that situation, he was.

 

[actaeon277]

After all, how long did this take?

[video=youtube;LX6v2Gw1Jq8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LX6v2Gw1Jq8&app=desktop&persist_app=1[/video]

 

[Thor]

My thought is, if he's threatening violence, I have to believe it.

Especially with spouse and young'uns there. Takes the threat to a whole new level.

 

[Thor]

After all, how long did this take?]

Situational awareness...it's almost impossible to achieve and maintain for those living among the insane every day. The spidey senses get dulled from over stimulation...even so it's important to maintain situational awareness.

 

[Hookeye]

In some discussion a person told me that a criminal beating you was no reason for using deadly force.
You had to feel like your life was in danger.

Life and death only.

Risk of physical/mental damage not good enough.

I dunno if their view was based on east or west coast legal.

 

[jamil]

In some discussion a person told me that a criminal beating you was no reason for using deadly force.
You had to feel like your life was in danger.

Life and death only.

Risk of physical/mental damage not good enough.

I dunno if their view was based on east or west coast legal.

Maybe Boston Legal?

 

[Hookeye]

It was a lawyer. LOL
Dunno where from.
Think next time we'll argue the definition of "is".

 

[actaeon277]

In some discussion a person told me that a criminal beating you was no reason for using deadly force.
You had to feel like your life was in danger.

Life and death only.

Risk of physical/mental damage not good enough.

I dunno if their view was based on east or west coast legal.

In Indiana, you can only use deadly force in self defense if there is a risk of death or serious injury.
Otherwise, you have to use "proportional" force.
So, if you are getting your head banged into the ground and you think you're losing consciousness, then you have a risk of death or serious injury.
You get punched once in the nose, then.. no.



That was in a "Gun Guy" (Guy Relford) show near the end of 2019. I just listened to I yesterday.

 

[actaeon277]

Indiana Code Title 35. Criminal Law and Procedure § 35-41-3-2


(1) is justified in using deadly force;  and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;

if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony.

 

[2A_Tom]

I just found out the other day that Texas penal code allows the use of deadly force to protect or reclaim property or land.

Texas Penal Code § 9.41. Protection of One's Own Property

(a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.


(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:


(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor;  or


(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.

Texas Penal Code § 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:


(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41 ;  and


(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:


(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime;  or


(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;  and


(3) he reasonably believes that:


(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means;  or


(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

How come Alamo never told us this?