Why Was Hip Shooting Ever a Thing?

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  • cedartop

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    If you have studied pistol gunfighting and training history you may already know some of this, but Chris does a good, brief job in this video. Yes, he left out Fairbairn and Sykes, maybe he will get to them another day.



    For those who say. "what about Taran Butler"? Listen to what he has to say about it at about the 5 minute mark.

     

    Alamo

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    He kind of slides by the fact that the two handed Weaver grip at eye level was invented by Jack Weaver (and adopted by the Colonel) in the late 1950s at the Leatherslap matches in California. Took awhile to catch on elsewhere, I guess Gunsite helped with that.
     

    natdscott

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    Because it is a large hit area, often immobilizes the individual very quickly due to shock and/or skeletal damage, while venous and arterial damage inside the pelvic cavity--much like the subclavian--is extremely challenging for even the best trauma team to cut fast enough to...



    Oh.

    Nevermind.

    ETA: For the other answer-that-isn't-one: Why was cupping the balls a thing? Why do people STILL cup and saucer like it ever worked?
     
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    indiucky

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    ETA: For the other answer-that-isn't-one: Why was cupping the balls a thing? Why do people STILL cup and saucer like it ever worked?


    I sometimes still shoot my Smith's upside down double action....... (because my ring finger never gets enough of a workout to be anything but a hinderance on my mandolin and I don't fret right handed anyway...)

    It doesn't help but it does make me smile and remember the older PPC shooters back in the 80s showing me how to do it and still hit center....

    I still shoot my Smith model 17 "tea cup" style and still manage to put the holes where they are supposed to go with it....

    Shooting is just fun...a fifty years from now on a gun forum people will be mocking the shooting style we use now I'd wager.....

    imho.....I'm old....
     

    BGDave

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    Try to find a copy of "No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan.

    Interesting guy. Worked for the Border Patrol when they actually did border patrol stuff.

    Better yet, youtube has some interesting videos.
     

    cedartop

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    Try to find a copy of "No Second Place Winner" by Bill Jordan.

    Interesting guy. Worked for the Border Patrol when they actually did border patrol stuff.

    Better yet, youtube has some interesting videos.
    He could have talked about Jordan in the video too, I assume he was just trying to keep it to a manageable length.
     

    cosermann

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    ...Yes, he left out Fairbairn and Sykes, maybe he will get to them another day...

    Yeah, kind of weird especially since he includes pics of them in his video. Only so much you say in an 11 min video I suppose.

    I'd never really thought of tracing it to Jelly Bryce. Makes some sense, but Jelly didn't invent hip shooting. All one has to do is read biographies from the late 1800s to know that. But, I think what Chris does correctly notice is that Jelly was the link to the FBI's institutional inertia that resulted in hip shooting being trained more broadly.
     
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    Jackson

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    I imagine that any consistent body position, if practiced enough, could be used to shoot relatively accurately inside 10 yards. Mileage will vary based on the shooter's bodily awareness.

    I bet most of you well-practiced sighted shooter's can look right over the gun at the target and make serviceable hits at closer distances just based on your consistent body index.
     

    Gabriel

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    It's interesting how one person can influence the entire firearm industry. I saved this email from Tactical Hyve a couple years ago because I thought it was interesting... and it's somewhat relatable to this topic:

    "Often, I hear and read people making comments about how one should have a bladed shooting stance, i.e. the Weaver stance, to make themselves a harder target and that the Weaver stance was made specifically for that.

    For those of you who have been taught that, here's the true story...in a nutshell.

    The Weaver stance was not created for any tactical reason.

    Jack Weaver, the 'inventor' of the stance, and his counterparts shot from their hips.

    Jack began to experiment with a different stance to improve performance in competition, i.e. bringing the gun up, his sights to his eyes, etc.

    At some point in time and for reasons I don't know, the Weaver stance became synonymous with being bladed--to make one a more difficult target.

    When you talk to 'younger' shooters, many if not all, immediately think about a bladed stance when they think about the Weaver stance.

    However, this is an on-going myth.

    The original Weaver stance was pretty much squared.

    With one arm bent there will be some minor blading, naturally, but the original stance didn't look like the bladed position more commonly connected with the stance today.

    So when talking about the Weaver stance, it's important to understand that many shooters these days associate it with being bladed for tactical reasons, but that isn't really the case.

    Many people also think that the arm positioning used in the Weaver stance was used for tactical reasons.

    This is a myth, too.

    World Champion shooter, JJ Racaza, met Jack and asked him why he used the arm positioning that he did.

    Jack told JJ that a shoulder impingement prevented him from shooting comfortably with an isosceles stance, i.e. Jack could not comfortably raise both arms, so one arm was bent more than the other.

    He didn't create it with the intention to be a harder target. He simply couldn't shoot comfortably any other way."
     

    cedartop

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    Apr 25, 2010
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    I imagine that any consistent body position, if practiced enough, could be used to shoot relatively accurately inside 10 yards. Mileage will vary based on the shooter's bodily awareness.

    I bet most of you well-practiced sighted shooter's can look right over the gun at the target and make serviceable hits at closer distances just based on your consistent body index.
    Is it possible? Sure. Is it optimal? No. Heck, we see videos all of the time now of people missing at close range when they actually get the gun up into their eyeline. As has been shown, gifted people with a LOT of practice can make this method work, but that is a far cry from trying to make it something that should be foisted upon the masses. For fun I worked with it some last night on one of the ranges in ACE that has a bunch of close and far range targets like giant pumpkins, poppers, clay pigeons on stands, etc. It was clear that a whole lot of work would be required to be anywhere near consistent.
     

    Twangbanger

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    It's interesting how one person can influence the entire firearm industry. I saved this email from Tactical Hyve a couple years ago because I thought it was interesting... and it's somewhat relatable to this topic:

    "Often, I hear and read people making comments about how one should have a bladed shooting stance, i.e. the Weaver stance, to make themselves a harder target and that the Weaver stance was made specifically for that.

    For those of you who have been taught that, here's the true story...in a nutshell.

    The Weaver stance was not created for any tactical reason.

    Jack Weaver, the 'inventor' of the stance, and his counterparts shot from their hips.

    Jack began to experiment with a different stance to improve performance in competition, i.e. bringing the gun up, his sights to his eyes, etc.

    At some point in time and for reasons I don't know, the Weaver stance became synonymous with being bladed--to make one a more difficult target.

    When you talk to 'younger' shooters, many if not all, immediately think about a bladed stance when they think about the Weaver stance.

    However, this is an on-going myth.

    The original Weaver stance was pretty much squared.

    With one arm bent there will be some minor blading, naturally, but the original stance didn't look like the bladed position more commonly connected with the stance today.

    So when talking about the Weaver stance, it's important to understand that many shooters these days associate it with being bladed for tactical reasons, but that isn't really the case.

    Many people also think that the arm positioning used in the Weaver stance was used for tactical reasons.

    This is a myth, too.

    World Champion shooter, JJ Racaza, met Jack and asked him why he used the arm positioning that he did.

    Jack told JJ that a shoulder impingement prevented him from shooting comfortably with an isosceles stance, i.e. Jack could not comfortably raise both arms, so one arm was bent more than the other.

    He didn't create it with the intention to be a harder target. He simply couldn't shoot comfortably any other way."
    That's interesting. Jeff Cooper insisted until death the Isosceles stance was inferior with heavier recoiling (ie, 45 hardball) guns. Maybe it was true as far as he was concerned, but it's been so thoroughly debunked by subsequent experience, that it's amusing to recall the adamance with which he insisted on that viewpoint.
     

    ECS686

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    It's interesting how one person can influence the entire firearm industry. I saved this email from Tactical Hyve a couple years ago because I thought it was interesting... and it's somewhat relatable to this topic:

    "Often, I hear and read people making comments about how one should have a bladed shooting stance, i.e. the Weaver stance, to make themselves a harder target and that the Weaver stance was made specifically for that.

    For those of you who have been taught that, here's the true story...in a nutshell.

    The Weaver stance was not created for any tactical reason.

    Jack Weaver, the 'inventor' of the stance, and his counterparts shot from their hips.

    Jack began to experiment with a different stance to improve performance in competition, i.e. bringing the gun up, his sights to his eyes, etc.

    At some point in time and for reasons I don't know, the Weaver stance became synonymous with being bladed--to make one a more difficult target.

    When you talk to 'younger' shooters, many if not all, immediately think about a bladed stance when they think about the Weaver stance.

    However, this is an on-going myth.

    The original Weaver stance was pretty much squared.

    With one arm bent there will be some minor blading, naturally, but the original stance didn't look like the bladed position more commonly connected with the stance today.

    So when talking about the Weaver stance, it's important to understand that many shooters these days associate it with being bladed for tactical reasons, but that isn't really the case.

    Many people also think that the arm positioning used in the Weaver stance was used for tactical reasons.

    This is a myth, too.

    World Champion shooter, JJ Racaza, met Jack and asked him why he used the arm positioning that he did.

    Jack told JJ that a shoulder impingement prevented him from shooting comfortably with an isosceles stance, i.e. Jack could not comfortably raise both arms, so one arm was bent more than the other.

    He didn't create it with the intention to be a harder target. He simply couldn't shoot comfortably any other way."
    Good stuff. I get a chuckle because there seems to be a ton of shooters young and old that would tell Jack Weaver he’s doing then weaver wrong!!!

    There are guys that own a gun and have an opinion then there’s guys that have actually been in or seen stuff while in harms way!!!
     
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