Why the DHS Ammo Order is No Big Deal

[drillsgt]

Agents are issued hollow points. This is NOT an order for the military. Oh, and YES, you qualify with what you carry. I would HOPE that you have shot the ammo you carry and not just ball ammo.

To qualify i'm okay with using duty ammo as it is usually of more consistent quality and more accurate but for training you don't need to use HP's that's just wasting money.

 

[Trooper]

Here is the big deal ... the Constitution does not allow for a National Police force 100,000 agents = 10 Divisions of standing troops

Those LEOs are spread over 265 agencies. They are not an unified force. The larger agencies are the Marshals, Coast Guard and DoD police. Most of them have limited authority and act as security guards.

Just remember to effectively police a population of 300 million people it would take over 5 million LEOs. We barely have 1 million police in the US now, including the 100,000 at Federal level. And over half those LEOs work for agencies with less than 17 officers!

 

[Trooper]

Oh come on! You don't expect them to start following the Constitution for a change, do you?

Seriously, you are absolutely right and this is a very serious threat to liberty, especially given how 'law enforcement' tends to be militarized and misused.

Just remember that if we ever did have a police state, the first people effected would be democrat voters, especially minorities. After all the gang bangers have more guns than we do. If the left wanted a police state they would have to purge their own first in order to have any form of stability.

 

[Trooper]

If you are wondering why there is a .22 shortage, maybe the vid in this post will give you the answer. I acknowledge this vid may be a little dated, but if you listen carefully toward the end, you will hear them say that the factory produces a whopping 16 pallets of .22 per day. Wow ,,16 whole pallets

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/ammunition_and_reloading/282296-how_cci_make_22lr_ammo.html

Most of the .22 shortages are due to hording.

 

[drillsgt]

Those LEOs are spread over 265 agencies. They are not an unified force. The larger agencies are the Marshals, Coast Guard and DoD police. Most of them have limited authority and act as security guards.

Just remember to effectively police a population of 300 million people it would take over 5 million LEOs. We barely have 1 million police in the US now, including the 100,000 at Federal level. And over half those LEOs work for agencies with less than 17 officers!

100,000 is too many, does anybody have a breakdown of the numbers of actual agents across agencies?

 

[Trooper]

100,000 is too many, does anybody have a breakdown of the numbers of actual agents across agencies?

Well the Marshals are the largest. I think that Energy has one of the smallest.

Frankly Most of these are police officers, not agents. They are security guards. It would be better to merge most of them under the US Marshals. Split the varous duties between the Marshals (ie move ATF, DEA and such into the Marshals) and DoD police.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Those LEOs are spread over 265 agencies. They are not an unified force. The larger agencies are the Marshals, Coast Guard and DoD police. Most of them have limited authority and act as security guards.

Just remember to effectively police a population of 300 million people it would take over 5 million LEOs. We barely have 1 million police in the US now, including the 100,000 at Federal level. And over half those LEOs work for agencies with less than 17 officers!

You have just highlighted one of the potential concerns with most all federal law enforcement plus the Coast Guard being amalgamated under the DHS umbrella. In reality, that division is more hypothetical and less real than the flow chart suggests.

Just remember that if we ever did have a police state, the first people effected would be democrat voters, especially minorities. After all the gang bangers have more guns than we do. If the left wanted a police state they would have to purge their own first in order to have any form of stability.

True enough, but most power grabs of that magnitude are followed by purging the ranks of the supposed supporters. While the gangbangers may not be supporters in the sense that the brownshirts were Hitler's supporters, I most certainly would not be surprised by most any purge. After all, most of those who pull the lever for an up and coming dictator have outlived their usefulness once he actually becomes a dictator, especially those who were bribed to vote without doing anything useful (other than voting) in the first place.

 

[zippy23]

So the numbers of DHS agents and the numbers of bullets they are buying is "no big deal"?????? ARE YOU F-ING SERIOUS? what are police for then? are you really justifying the gov't stocking up AGAINST the american people? i mean if you said its no big deal the military bought this i would get that, but this is DHS, they are HERE, not outside the country. are you freaking serious?

 

[Whosyer]

Well the Marshals are the largest. I think that Energy has one of the smallest.

Frankly Most of these are police officers, not agents. They are security guards. It would be better to merge most of them under the US Marshals. Split the varous duties between the Marshals (ie move ATF, DEA and such into the Marshals) and DoD police.

How about we just eliminate the ATF and DEA completely ?

 

[Trooper]

So the numbers of DHS agents and the numbers of bullets they are buying is "no big deal"?????? ARE YOU F-ING SERIOUS? what are police for then? are you really justifying the gov't stocking up AGAINST the american people? i mean if you said its no big deal the military bought this i would get that, but this is DHS, they are HERE, not outside the country. are you freaking serious?

Do you think that at the current numbers that they would even have a chance? The ranks of the gang bangers would overwhelm them alone. The only reason that you feel vulnerable is that you tend to live an isolated life. If you had the support network that the gang bangers have, you would have power in numbers.

 

[Trooper]

How about we just eliminate the ATF and DEA completely ?

Yes that would be best. But as long as the laws are on the books, someone will enforce them. Better that the Marshals have that authority. Or empower the local police.

 

[OneShotFOGE]

Actually, I target practice with the round I carry/hunt with.

I do too. It seems many think that is weird, but the difference in price is fairly minimal to me. And I think its a good idea to practice with what you plan on using.

 

[rambone]

Among the three, Chicago, New York City, and Los Angeles City/County, those three "local" law enforcement entities probably have close to 40k armed police officers. How do you think 100k federal officers stack up against the number of local law enforcement personnel in the nation?

How SHOULD they stack up? I think the Fed:Local ratio should be significantly lower.

Just remember to effectively police a population of 300 million people it would take over 5 million LEOs. We barely have 1 million police in the US now, including the 100,000 at Federal level. And over half those LEOs work for agencies with less than 17 officers!

Government is too small for you then, even at the current levels?

 

[Trooper]

How SHOULD they stack up? I think the Fed:Local ratio should be significantly lower.


Government is too small for you then, even at the current levels?

No, and you are making assumptions about what I saying. Please read instead of injecting your bias.

My point is that it is nearly impossible to have a police state without having a major police force. That it would take over 5 million LEOs to do what you fear. As it sits now, a police state is nearly impossible as there is NO WAY the police could be that effective. Especially if we are united and support one another.

The biggest problem is that libertarians refuse to work together. Thus their fear. Gang Bangers are have more of a support group than libertarians have.

 

[steveh_131]

The biggest problem is that libertarians refuse to work together.

Source?

 

[Classic]

I can buy in to some of the math that says it's no big deal. My question is, if it isn't any big deal then why is DHS and Big Sis refusing to answer Congressional inquiries about it. If the answer is that simple it would seem easy for them to answer as opposed to being secretive and stonewalling.

Department of Homeland Security Refuses to Answer Congress Questions Regarding Ammunition Purchases | What Did You Say?

 

[BigMatt]

My point is that it is nearly impossible to have a police state without having a major police force. That it would take over 5 million LEOs to do what you fear. As it sits now, a police state is nearly impossible as there is NO WAY the police could be that effective. Especially if we are united and support one another.

In 2012 there were 1.1 million full-time police. That doesn't include part-time police, corrections officers, MP's, National Guard police, Secret Service, DEA agents, DHS agents, EPA agents, ect...

I think you are underestimating how many people out there could qualify as "Police".

 

[CQB]

ANYTHING done by the current administration in DC is questionable and well worth a little worry.

 

[Trooper]

In 2012 there were 1.1 million full-time police. That doesn't include part-time police, corrections officers, MP's, National Guard police, Secret Service, DEA agents, DHS agents, EPA agents, ect...

I think you are underestimating how many people out there could qualify as "Police".

The 1.1 million includes local, state and federal LEOs to include Secret Service, DEA, all federal officers. Basically the federal portion is about 10%.

Some states make Correctional Officers (CO) law enforcement (Indiana does not).

My point is that it would take alot more police than we have now. About five times more. And even then it would be hard to really control the American people. Look, we can not even effectively take out gang bangers then how are we going to go after YOU?

Everyone would get a lawyer, tie up the system for years and basically ignore the laws. And Americans are very good at ignoring laws they dislike.

 

[BigMatt]

The 1.1 million includes local, state and federal LEOs to include Secret Service, DEA, all federal officers. Basically the federal portion is about 10%.

This is a quote from Wikipedia. I am not going to do any more research on this. - "In 2008, state and local law enforcement agencies employed more than 1.1 million persons on a full-time basis"

I missed it too - how did we come up with a consensus of 5 million LEO's to police the adult population of the US?