Why all the hate on .40

[loudgroove]

Ugh, another needlessly controversial gun subject. I'm pleased to see most responding with humility with the "different strokes for different folks attitude". I have and carry a .40 because it's what I shoot better than any of my other handguns, including my 9mm's. It's understood why 9mm has become so popular, but just because everyone is doing it doesn't mean I have to do it.

The other stupid argument is the "40 short and wimpy" argument. Yes .40 S&W is weaker than 10mm, but I'm not hiking in the Klondike. I haven't chrono graphed my bullets, but typically a standard 115 gr .40 will have somewhat more velocity and kinetic energy than both standard 115 gr 9mm and a 230 gr. 45 ACP, and will likely have better terminal ballistics than the same 9mm. Now that's splitting hairs in a self defense scenario against your local crackhead, but .40 is technically the most powerful of the three when judging in certain circumstances and outside of over pressured rounds. Ridiculing someone for using "40 short and wimpy" is like ridiculing someone for using 45 ACP over 45 Colt, or 9x19 over 9x21 or .357 Sig.

Well said.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Ok, I'll re-phrase. A 165 gr .40 will give slightly better terminal ballistics than a 124 gr. 9mm. Most likely not enough to make a difference, however my objective with that paragraph was to challenge the "short and wimpy" argument by attempting to make a direct comparison. I acknowledge I haven't seen as much people with holes as you have, so all have is the rough ballistics.

Agreed on not enough to make a difference, and yeah there's always a hand full of "I'm so macho I carry a...." cool story bros in any of these threads.

As far as terminal ballistics, I'd say it's *likely* the .40 S&W will crush more tissue, but not a given. It really depends on what, if any, intermediate barriers existed, which cartridge was used, etc. It's definitely angels on pinheads sort of differences, though.

Why would anyone want to kill a bugler? Oh, never mind!

To make that awful racket stop.

Caliber makes no difference if the sound of gunfire is all you’re after.

Physical stops, absolutely. Psychological stops, I'm less sure. I suspect, but can't prove, that muzzle flash and "blastiness" for lack of a better term influence psychological stops. To head off the inevitable, no I'm not suggesting relying on psychological stops.

When I retired in 2020 from BOP there were 2 approved 9mm Duty rounds. both Federal. The used forever 115 gr 9BP Standard pressure (not the plus P Plus) and standard pressure 124 HST.

Going from memory, but I *think* the FBI and the other agencies that ride on their last purchase contract had purchase options for HST, Gold Dot G2, and Critical Duty. Wouldn't swear to it under oath, though.

 

[cavallo]

No hate from me. My first pistol was a Glock 22 Gen 4. I purchased that when 40 was all the rage and I trained like heck with it and even competed with it. While 9mm is noticably less recoil, for me, 40 is no problem and totally comfortable.

I think of it like hot/spicy food: If you have not eaten spicy food before, truly spicy food may be too much and be unenjoyable. If you grew up in a culture where hot/spicy is normal, you don't have a problem with it. There is nothing wrong with 40, it is just a little more spicy than what some are used to.

While I am unlikely to buy another 40 at this point, I still enjoy, reload and shoot what I have.

 

[cavallo]

In fairness, I don't think everyone thinks about GAP at all.

Unfortunately, that includes most ammo manufacturers too. Last time I did a search for 45GAP on a whim I only saw one brand listed at ANY price.

 

[miguel]

Dare I mention my first pistol was a S&W Sigma in 40?

 

[xwing]

No hate. Every caliber has it's good and bad points. But as 9mm ammo improved, it took away the main advantages of .40. You can have nearly as good performance, much lower price point, less recoil and better capacity with 9mm.

Still, I will probably get a .40 sometime. It's just fun to have variety.

 

[armalitesheepdog]

Actually if SHTF .40 S&W might be the only thing left on the shelf. We have been through not one but two ammo panic buying scenarios since 2012. .380 auto and .38 spl were the first to dry up. Then 9mm and .45 ACP. Magnum revolver cartridges were never in big supply to begin with.

If SHTF Was truly a SHTF, I dont think there will be anything left on the shelf at all
Ammo is in the top 5 barter items

 

[DadSmith]

No. The super light weight/high velocity rounds make impressive energy numbers for marketing but are not better performers. Simply put, they make messy but shallow wounds. I've detailed the whys of it before, won't rehash it.

165 gr and 180gr .40S&W, 124 or 147gr 9mm.

Agree 100%.

My research into what works for self-defense, and what I know works for hunting any game, varmint etc is that the heavy bullets although slower hit harder, and have better penetration. From 22lr to 308-win in rifles, and 22lr to 44mag which is the most powerful handgun I have.

300gr XTP at 1300fps out of my 44mag is overkill for even the biggest whitetail, mule deer as well.
I've never tried to kill elk or bear with it. However, it was my backup for years when hunting in the Rocky mountains.
I like 200gr in my 10mm. I like the ability to load up almost 41mag factory loaded ammunition in power in a semi-auto with faster follow up shots, and as good penetration.
45acp I like the 200-230gr loaded to maximum pressure not +p. I've found that the 45acp does great with 200gr bullets as well. IMO more accuracy, and velocity. Again my handloads tailored to my handguns.
9mm I like 147gr, but I will fall back on 124gr if need be. I do not like 115gr. My pistols just don't like them other than Hornady HAP or XTP but they are junk for self defense.
I go HST, or Gold Dot 147gr 1st choice. 124gr second.
38 Special I like a mildly loaded 148gr wadcutter. No need to go +p, or +p+.
22lr I like 40gr. Until I seen what the 22lr punch does. I'm shocked it can penetrate as well as it does with such a light bullet.

 

[mmpsteve]

...
22lr I like 40gr. Until I seen what the 22lr punch does. I'm shocked it can penetrate as well as it does with such a light bullet.

Off topic, but just saw a new 22 round with true JHP, not copper washed. Expands just like Gold Dot, even out of a pistol.



.

 

[Sniper 79]

Read up on the history of that pistol. Glocks were never designed to shoot the .40. Unsupported chambers make them unsafe to handload for. Lots of kaboom in Glock 40 cals.

On a positive note you can swap a 9mm barrel in that pistol and have two guns in one. Shoot whatever is on sale.

 

[ECS686]

Read up on the history of that pistol. Glocks were never designed to shoot the .40. Unsupported chambers make them unsafe to handload for. Lots of kaboom in Glock 40 cals.

On a positive note you can swap a 9mm barrel in that pistol and have two guns in one. Shoot whatever is on sale.

While that happened it was more the Glock version of the Sig 320 while it happened there was more human involvement.

Where folks ran into issues with KB with Glocks and 40 specifically was they 1 didn’t resize the brass and 2 but most importantly they tried to use the same brass several times over. The brass is only going to take the pressure so many times. If you discarded the brass after no more than 3-4 uses not an issue.

I ran USPSA with a Glock 35 (when Limited and Open were it) and reloaded 40. From factory to 2 reloaded I discarded my brass after 3 firings. And I never used brass pick ups from unknown sources. And the KN I watched several million 40 factory rounds go down range when teaching at FLETC when Glock 22 was king and no issues with KB

 

[Sniper 79]

Another thing is that police and FBI went back to 9mm. For some reason citizens always want what is in vogue at the time.

 

[rugertoter]

So i just got a police surplus glock 22, gun has minimal holster wear and looks unfired for like $260, but everyone seems to hate .40 with a passion, but why?

I understand there's more recoil and it can be if it's happy, and in compact and subcompact guns it sucks to shoot, but it doesn't seem that bad in service pistols.

The ammo isn't incredibly expensive and available. It's easy enough to shoot in a a full size gun. It seems to perform better then 9mm with barrier penetration and even cheap .40 JHPs perform as well as if not better then 9mm. Even the flat nose .40 FMJ is not a horrible defensive round(over penetration aside6
).

I get people who call it .40 Short and Weak and want to carry full house 10mm and it's good for hunting. but looking at most ammunition, testing, full power 10 mm either over expands or over penetrates with most modern defensive ammunition.

And the well regarded defensive/duty JHP loadings in 10mm are running more or less at hot .40 S&W velocities.

I understand why people don't like it for concealed carry, but why all the hate?

If ai had to use it as a cop gun, or in a home defense pistol it seems like it is a good middle of the round round for that purpose

I used to stock the .40 S&W, but "streamlined" my stock a few years ago, so the .40 went, but not because I didn't like it. I chose between it and 10mm, but went with the 10.

Anybody that thinks the .40 S&W is "short and weak", does not know what they are talking about. Of course it is shorter and a tad less powerful than it's parent cartridge, the 10mm Auto, but that was the whole point. Besides, at the time, there were not very many 9mm choices out there to bridge that gap, and the .40 did it.

Don't worry about what other people think...just about everyone has their own agenda, and in your world, it only matters what caliber you want to be a part of. JMHO

 

[Bluedragon]

I'll second this! .357 Sig is like 9mm Magnum. Given the love for 10mm, you'd think that .357 Sig would be more popular. It's like 9mm that goes to 11 on the volume dial.

I've been on the fence non stop for several years about investing in a 357 barrel and some ammo for my P229 for what you speak.

Exotic rarity for the ammo at shops with a hefty price always keeps me away though.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I've been on the fence non stop for several years about investing in a 357 barrel and some ammo for my P229 for what you speak.

Exotic rarity for the ammo at shops with a hefty price always keeps me away though.

I sold my .357 Sig barrels for both P226 and P229. It was ok, just didn't see the need for it and getting set up to reload it when I already had existing options. Only reason I played with them is used guns that came with them. It's another example of nothing wrong with it, just doesn't do anything worth expanding my logistics for. If I didn't reload I may be less boring on this sort of thing, but it's tough to look at buckets of brass for existing calibers and think "Gosh, I'd really like to start stockpiling something else from scratch because reasons..."

 

[Bluedragon]

I sold my .357 Sig barrels for both P226 and P229. It was ok, just didn't see the need for it and getting set up to reload it when I already had existing options. Only reason I played with them is used guns that came with them. It's another example of nothing wrong with it, just doesn't do anything worth expanding my logistics for. If I didn't reload I may be less boring on this sort of thing, but it's tough to look at buckets of brass for existing calibers and think "Gosh, I'd really like to start stockpiling something else from scratch because reasons..."

I'll be honest if i found a good deal for all of it i would really like to swap the slide, barrel, grips, mag, recoil spring, and locking insert to that of a P228 and make it a 9mm to save wear on the frame and to match my P226 9mm.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'll be honest if i found a good deal for all of it i would really like to swap the slide, barrel, grips, mag, recoil spring, and locking insert to that of a P228 and make it a 9mm to save wear on the frame and to match my P226 9mm.

You don't have to swap all of that, but of course you could if you like. Sig used to make "x-change" kits where it was just the slide. I have one for my P226 so I can swap between 9mm and .40 easily, just use the correct magazine and slide and you're gtg. Looks like they only make them for rimfire to centerfire now, though. Barsto used to make a conversion barrel, I assume they still do. They were supposed to work with just a recoil spring swap and the appropriate magazines, but I never tried it myself.

 

[Bluedragon]

You don't have to swap all of that, but of course you could if you like. Sig used to make "x-change" kits where it was just the slide. I have one for my P226 so I can swap between 9mm and .40 easily, just use the correct magazine and slide and you're gtg. Looks like they only make them for rimfire to centerfire now, though. Barsto used to make a conversion barrel, I assume they still do. They were supposed to work with just a recoil spring swap and the appropriate magazines, but I never tried it myself.

Yeah I just want to so it pretty much "transforms" into a P228. Hence the change of grips changed also from 229 to 228.

I have heard 229 40 mags can work in a pinch for 9mm and i am always attracted to the idea of a 40 to 9 conversion threaded barrel from barsto.

 

[Marlarm]

So i just got a police surplus glock 22, gun has minimal holster wear and looks unfired for like $260, but everyone seems to hate .40 with a passion, but why?

I understand there's more recoil and it can be if it's happy, and in compact and subcompact guns it sucks to shoot, but it doesn't seem that bad in service pistols.

The ammo isn't incredibly expensive and available. It's easy enough to shoot in a a full size gun. It seems to perform better then 9mm with barrier penetration and even cheap .40 JHPs perform as well as if not better then 9mm. Even the flat nose .40 FMJ is not a horrible defensive round(over penetration aside6
).

I get people who call it .40 Short and Weak and want to carry full house 10mm and it's good for hunting. but looking at most ammunition, testing, full power 10 mm either over expands or over penetrates with most modern defensive ammunition.

And the well regarded defensive/duty JHP loadings in 10mm are running more or less at hot .40 S&W velocities.

I understand why people don't like it for concealed carry, but why all the hate?

If ai had to use it as a cop gun, or in a home defense pistol it seems like it is a good middle of the round round for that purpose

I’ve had a 40 caliber AMT back up since I was about 19 and I’ve never had a problem shooting it
People are just pansies, I guess

 

[ZOG]

I am an original owner of a S&W 4006.
I Still have it, among other 40s. Always will!!