Weapons Mounted Lights

[ShimmeringTrees]

For leo personnel, with serious experience. Would you rather have the light mounted to the underbarrell or use the Harries method? To me the light gives you something to shoot at. But don't really know. The only experience I have, which isn't practical, is nvgs with floodlight etc.

 

[joe138]

For leo personnel, with serious experience. Would you rather have the light mounted to the underbarrell or use the Harries method? To me the light gives you something to shoot at. But don't really know. The only experience I have, which isn't practical, is nvgs with floodlight etc.

On the weapon. It is much more easier to shoot that way than any other method for me. I have used other methods prior to having pistols with rails. But weapon mounted is much more beneficial for me.

 

[ECS686]

For leo personnel, with serious experience. Would you rather have the light mounted to the underbarrell or use the Harries method? To me the light gives you something to shoot at. But don't really know. The only experience I have, which isn't practical, is nvgs with floodlight etc.

We had lights mounted on our rifles but used handhelds with our handguns and that’s what I have stuck with especially as a retired earth person.

That said from doing some Range Master IDC and other courses several experts within the LE Training realm (and I tend to think this as a retired LE Trainer) in the next 5 years we will see an LEO Prosecuted for pointing a gun at someone they weren’t legally allowed to shoot. Probably in the east or left coast but it’s going to happen. (Which truth be told we LEO’s probably did that way to much anyway)

Also before handguns with WML on them LE didn’t shoot folks that probably didn’t need to be shot. There seems to be several more “accidental “ shootings than years (decades) ago and to me it seems WML are part of the issue

 

[daddyusmaximus]

IMHO, every defensive firearm needs a light.
Now if I could just afford one for every gun I have.
Oh, and you STILL need a handheld light.
You must know what you intend to shoot at, but let's face it... we use a light to find dropped keys a lot more than defend ourselves.

 

[Bassat]

My G21 house gun has a rail-mounted light. It is NOT for identifying targets; that is just plain stupid. I have a flashlight to ID potential targets. The WML is so I can light up the target AFTER I identify it as a target. BTW, I train to use only my LEFT THUMB (right handed shooter) to turn my light on/off. If you are using your trigger finger to turn your WML on/off, you are begging for troubles beyond belief.

 

[ECS686]

Respectfully Here is just a thought for those that are suggesting using both a WML and a Handheld for “identification” That works great in a 1 dimensional scenario where you think you’re just identifying and that’s all.

Yes a handheld is for identifying a target/ or more importantly if something is a threat. OK it’s a threat you usually as a civilian (or LEO) if you are at low ready with the handgun in one hand and right that moment you have accessed THREAT and a SHOT is JUSTIFIED you are going to go to Harries or some other method more than likely over dropping your handheld.

At least that’s the outcome in most of the low light training stuff at FLETC I observed teaching several classes. The ones that dropped the handheld ended up getting lit up or sometimes momentarily blinded as everyone is running 500 plus lumens lights now.

And having a handgun drawn at low ready is not always an option as a civilian so lots of variables.

There is no right or wrong answer just some discussion and observations I have seen/had myself and with some fellow Agency Instructor at FLETC and at the local places.

 

[ShimmeringTrees]

Respectfully Here is just a thought for those that are suggesting using both a WML and a Handheld for “identification” That works great in a 1 dimensional scenario where you think you’re just identifying and that’s all.



I love MOUT. There is no greater thrill, to me, than kicking down a door you have no idea what is waiting on the other side. With that, I definitely never liked being first, second, or last. I am definitely a firm believer in compression switches, when they work. I find it very interesting to hear other people's tactics, techniques, and procedures.



























































































































Yes a handheld is for identifying a target/ or more importantly if something is a threat. OK it’s a threat you usually as a civilian (or LEO) if you are at low ready with the handgun in one hand and right that moment you have accessed THREAT and a SHOT is JUSTIFIED you are going to go to Harries or some other method more than likely over dropping your handheld.































































































































At least that’s the outcome in most of the low light training stuff at FLETC I observed teaching several classes. The ones that dropped the handheld ended up getting lit up or sometimes momentarily blinded as everyone is running 500 plus lumens lights now.































































































































And having a handgun drawn at low ready is not always an option as a civilian so lots of variables.































































































































There is no right or wrong answer just some discussion and observations I have sen/had myself and with some fellow Agency Instructor at FLETC and the local

 

[joe138]

If you have a good weapon light, you do not have to point it at an unknown target/area. The light should have enough candella/lumens, to "splash" the light on the area from the low ready. If your working with a "Harries" or some other similar technique, the same is true. the weapon should be at the low ready with the available light splashing the area.

 

[Trigger Time]

Yes, defensive firearms need lights. Get training

 

[ECS686]

If you have a good weapon light, you do not have to point it at an unknown target/area. The light should have enough candella/lumens, to "splash" the light on the area from the low ready. If you’re working with a "Harries" or some other similar technique, the same is true. the weapon should be at the low ready with the available light splashing the area.

Again respectfully. That’s a great technique IF you are justified to have a firearm out of the holster.

Outside of your home or own property 99.8% of the time one is not probably questionable on if they should be running around with a low ready gun.
And no a low ready your not pointing but nothing good usually comes from running around with it out in normal earth people use if a firearm situations.

As far as outside the home if you have yet to identify, is it a threat? Just because someone is there is that alone a threat? Better be right about it or it could not be a good day!!!

 

[cedartop]

Yes, defensive firearms need lights. Get training

With who? I have trained with well over a dozen well known (relatively speaking) trainers and many of them have wildly different opinions on this. When you look at the student shootings from Rangemaster all of them that had their gun were victorious yet last I knew none used a light. When you watch the videos on ASP of shootouts, I can't think of one I have seen where a light made a difference in a civilian encounter. That's not to say it has never happened but it surely isn't common.

Again I repeat, I have nothing against having a WML but like so many things, most of the time they are just there and people don't actually practice to use them. I still think outside of people who hunt people at night, having a handheld is far more important. Yes, nothing wrong with both, as long as you aren't drawing a gun on people who don't need a gun drawn on the. And yes, that does happen all the time, especially in the LEO world although I have been seeing more and more self policing of that lately.

I reserve the right to change my mind as the further along I get on this journey, the more I realize things I learned years ago may not be current best practice.

 

[Trigger Time]

I don't know who does this training now in the community but I'm sure it can be found. As with any training take the parts you like and use them and adapt as needed. If you don't feel like you need a wml then that's OK but I'd recommend having access to one.
My experiences downrange have formed my own opinion on it.

Do most civilians need to be using a wml? Probably not, most don't even know how to use their sidearm or have even shot it enough (if at all) to break it in before they carry it in defense of life.
For the people who do care enough to ask these hard questions, I always assume or hope they are the ones getting training from good instructors. While "searching" or identifying threats with a wml as a civilian isn't ideal, if I feel my life or others lives are at risk then I'll do what I feel is necessary and face any consequences after the threat is neutralized.
Handheld lights are great to have too but most people don't carry a spare mag, which I believe is even more important than a light even. So will they carry a light in their pocket or on their belt? Realistically, the answer is no.
There are so many rabbit holes we can go (and have before on ingo over the years) down when talking about carrying for defense of life but in reality a very small percentage of people in our community will be ready when seconds count. I'd rather have it and not need it. You can buy mini lights (streamlight or surefire) where you will never Even notice the extra weight or space it takes up in a concealed holster. But if you have never trained to activate it under stress then when their brain turns into puddy, arms are wet noodles and the tunnel vision kicks in, theyl forget they even have a light without the proper training and repetitive actions it takes to be muscle memory ready. So i think the question of a wml has a lot more to it than a simple yes or no, but i never intended on getting this far into the discussion. Yeah I'm jaded and think MOST people are idiots.

 

[MCgrease08]

As with anything preparedness related, better to have it and not needed then to need it and not have it. My EDC has a light on it, but I'm not gonna disagree with those who choose not to have one. Not having one on a home defense gun is a different story.

But IMHO a handheld light is far more important and useful from an EDC perspective. I use my handheld light out in public a heck of a lot more than I use my firearm. Sometimes I even carry two handhelds. One softer light for general tasks and a brighter one that can penetrate through other photonic barriers well. Like being able to push through the light from an overhead street light, and see what's next to a car 25 yards away, etc.

It's extremely rare to be in a true no light situation. Much more likely there will be some level of ambient light you'll need to push through to illuminate the truly dark patches.

 

[Trigger Time]

I guess it all comes down to what a individual wants to be ready for.
I don't plan on driving into a riot with burning tires or cs being deployed or a dirty bomb, but I keep a proper gas mask in my pov just incase. Same with an ifak incase I need to treat myself or someone I was forced to shoot in self defense.
I always think these discussions and various informed opinions on these matters are important. I wish more people would train with their sidearm. It really mindfucks me to know people are carrying pistols and they haven't even shot it once or properly had training. Don't misunderstand me, I absolutely support the right of ALL people to be armed, even idiots.
In regards to a proper light, weapon, or any edc tool, it can be situational.
If you know you're going to the movies or a show inside the convention center or any large building where if the interior lights go out it will be pitch black besides the numerous cellphone lights or emergency lighting (not enough to identify threats), maybe mount your light or at minimum carry a proper handheld light in your pocket?
We have the ability and hopefully the mindset to adapt if needed to protect life

 

[bwframe]

Lights on guns. WHY????

Why do you think you need a light on your gun? I look at a light as a target at night or dark areas. You have a light on your pistol, you are using it, where is your body? Light on long gun, most are to the left a very few to the right side. Very few bad guys are using a light. Lights show...

www.indianagunowners.com

March Rangemaster Newsletter

The March edition of Rangemaster’s monthly newsletter has been posted at http://rangemaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/2017-03_RFTS-Newsletter.pdf This issue contains a lot of detailed information about active shooter events and a continuation of our discussion of low light techniques.

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[joe138]

Again respectfully. That’s a great technique IF you are justified to have a firearm out of the holster.

Outside of your home or own property 99.8% of the time one is not probably questionable on if they should be running around with a low ready gun.
And no a low ready your not pointing but nothing good usually comes from running around with it out in normal earth people use if a firearm situations.

As far as outside the home if you have yet to identify, is it a threat? Just because someone is there is that alone a threat? Better be right about it or it could not be a good day!!!

I agree with everything you said. I thought it was a given thay one was justified in havingthe weapon out of the holster. That is why one should also carry a good hand held light.

Training is a must with all things firearms related in my opinion.

Steve Fisher of Sentinel Concepts provides good low light training.

 

[Steve]

I have a WML on my M&P .45 that sleeps next to my bed, but I am seriously considering swapping it out for a Crimson Trace style laser. The WML is great for lighting up the area, but my old eyes just aren't what they used to be when to comes to iron sights. I am thinking that a solid flashlight next to the .45 will handle the illumination issue and the laser will do the job for targeting.

Getting old is not for the faint of heart.

 

[92FSTech]

I have a WML on my work gun, but also carry two handhelds, and another big light in the car. I'm on dayshift now, but it's still dark in the morning and the evening, and old nightshift habits die hard. I don't go around pointing guns at things that don't need guns pointed at them, but there are things out there that do, and it's undeniably easier to shoot accurately with both hands.

I also have a WML on my HD gun. I know my house, and I know who should be in it, and I'm capable of navigating it in the dark and illuminating a room without sweeping the occupants. There's a handheld on the nightstand next to that gun as well, though. It's beneficial to have options and it doesn't impede me at all to have one handy.

For off-duty carry, my guns don't wear WMLs. Some of them aren't equipped for it (no rails), most light-bearing holsters are bulky and hard to conceal, and frankly I just don't want to wear the "batbelt" everywhere when I'm not working. I leave the redundancy for work and opt for a compact tool to cover multiple functions on my own time. I have a Streamlight MacroStream that goes with me everywhere and gets used constantly for all manner of things that don't involve firearms, but in the unlikely event that I need to see something to shoot at it'll work for that too. Yeah, it's a compromise but it's unobtrusive and easily carried, and much more useful in my daily life than a light stuck to a gun.

One thing to consider for those who are using a pistol mounted optic and relying on a handheld for illumination...have you tried it in the dark with your setup and observed what it does to the dot? There are certain handheld techniques that are awesome for iron sights that will illuminate the back of your optic glass and make the dot impossible to see. It's worth doing a little practice in the dark to make sure you know what works and what doesn't ahead of time so you don't get surprised if you have to do it for real.

 

[Jackson]

One thing to consider for those who are using a pistol mounted optic and relying on a handheld for illumination...have you tried it in the dark with your setup and observed what it does to the dot? There are certain handheld techniques that are awesome for iron sights that will illuminate the back of your optic glass and make the dot impossible to see. It's worth doing a little practice in the dark to make sure you know what works and what doesn't ahead of time so you don't get surprised if you have to do it for real.

This might be the most practical and useful advice in this thread. I don't use an optic and hadn't considered this. I'm confident my preferred handheld light technique would cause exactly the problem you describe.

 

[grunt soldier]

I think to many people aren't paying attention. If I'm justified to have my gun out I'm probably pointing it at u because where my eyes go so do the gun. Your gun is out people. Your eyes should absolutely be going where your gun is pointing. How does a light change this scenario to a negative? The only difference between a light and no light is you can PID ur target or a non combatant. You can identify whats in the hands or what isn't.

if I'm clearing a building numerous announcements have already been made. There are a few devices that let u run the hand held light like its attached to the weapon but imo a weapon mounted light is an absolute must for any true self defense firearm. Anyone who is having ND or whatever because of a weapon mounted light is a moron cause regardless your finger shouldn't be on the trigger. Training. Training. Training.

I have had the opportunity to train with some the best in the business and can't recall one who didnt run a weapon mounted light. If I'm clearing a building or a alley for a bad guy or a bump in the night it will be with both hands on my weapon and a light that can be easily activated if needed.

If your just curious about a noise whatever you should always have a hand held light with u. I carry 1 handheld plus the weapon mounted light. Use it to do ur normal tasks or explore but if your gun is justified in being out how does a weapon mounted light not make the absolute most sense. Gun owners confuse me everyday hahah. Since the early 2000's in the military lights have been attached to guns for a reason because it makes sense and is tactically sound. When we first started clearing buildings in Afghanistan and Iraq pre weapon mounted lights we duct taped maglites to our guns because it made a massive difference in our ability to be effective.

If you can't justify your gun being out then use the pocket light. If you can justify having your weapin out of the holster you can justify the light pointing at someone. Get training people. Not just flat range shooting. 3 demensional training that applies to the real world.

If leon jumps out between some cars and its illuminated enough the weapon light doesnt matter. But if its only partially visible u need to know he has a gun and not his phone. If you dont need the weapon light great but if you do and your then taking your hands from the weapon to dig in ur pocket u have already lost