Trump 2024 ???

[jamil]

Since you have indicated that you feel that coalition needs to reach beyond likely republican voters, perhaps you can explain what policies DeSantis has articulated so far that will have the desired appeal? Can we even agree that running to the right of Trump isn't going to appeal outside of a fraction of the Republican Party (that is declining over time)?

I've told you that Trump is not equipped to appeal to the public to get congress to do what he wants. I've also said I'm not sure DeSantis has the chops either. That remains unproven. Trump's deficiency in that regard IS proven. He can't help himself. He's simply divisive. Maybe we needed that in 2016. Gotta give him props for showing people how to fight. I think his usefulness has been spent.

But back to your thoughts on policy. It's not the policy that sells the person. It's the person who sells the policy. Trump can sell it to the people Trump appeals to, and only them. The media makes straw monsters of the people trying to sell AF policies. Kinda like what you try to do with people who can criticize Trump. What DeSantis has to do is use the bully pulpit to articulate what the policies actually are in a way that people see through the media ********. That's what Reagan did. Trump can't do that.

Trump's not articulate. He's too Trump-centered. His ego is too big for this job. He is too abrasive to be well liked. But he does have the charisma. Trump's personality is just big. He consumes a room. But that's not enough. He needs those other parts. DeSantis is articulate. He understands how to cut through the media ******** to articulate reality. But you HAVE to listen to him. With Reagan, people liked to hear him speak. With DeSantis it's a chore. So I think pulling the Reagan thing off will be challenging for him. I know Trump can't do it. I am not certain DeSantis can do it.

I think I should say something about that strategy. It might be the best strategy to end Cownworld. But Reagan was POTUS in an era when the fairness doctrine was still mostly practiced. They had to at least pretend to be unbiased back then. So I'm not sure the Reagan approach can be successful now because the media is so much more powerfully in control of people's thinking. It's probably the best shot, but I'm not optimistic. I desperately want a solution to end Clownworld though. And of the available choices, I want the person most equipped to do it.

 

[jamil]

Why did he need to retreat at all?

I don't see it as a retreat. I don't think he's changed his stance on it from what he originally said. I think you are so eager to see it that you're not gonna change your mind no matter the evidence. And at first, I took your word for it. I didn't dig into it like KG1 did. I just chalked it up to another defect. But reading through the articles KG1's posted, I've decided it's not the defect you made it out to be.

 

[BugI02]

Speaking about an example of attempting to work across the aisle thing didn't Trump originally try to do that when first elected in 2016 but quickly found out that it wasn't going to work? He should've known that. I'm pretty sure that DeSantis knows that it wouldn't work, and he wouldn't even attempt to do it.

We'll see. IMO he wants to get elected more than he has a plan to do something with the office (based on anything he has articulated so far)

I think it is only a matter of time before he is forced to show his true colors and look forward to savoring what the rationalization will be when that happens

 

[KG1]

Why did he need to retreat at all?

While I agree that there wasn't a need to walk it back, but nevertheless he still sees it as Europe’s fight, not so much America’s concern.

“The Europeans really need to do more. I mean, this is their continent."

Now I would take issue with it if he retreated by now agreeing with them that we should be involved in it and it is of our national security interest like those members of Congress and the Biden admin insist it is and want us to continue to be involved in it.

He still disagrees with that, and he's never joined them in that assessment, quite to the contrary.

 

[jamil]

I'm still waiting for that data supporting your assertion that Trump only appeals to Trumpers

"what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

That's that Hitchens guy, rational atheist, I thought you might like him

Then why were you so eager to post something that you thought refuted what I said? Did you discover Hitchens only now? Why is it only after reading the context and discovering you actually helped my claim rather than refute it, that you are no longer eager to post evidence against it? Is it because you've only found support for my claim. Do you still cling to the belief, especially after "Magadonia", that Trump can unite people under AF?

He can sell it to the people who already agree with him. I don't think he has a chance to sell it to anyone else. And it doesn't look to me that with his "Magadonia" ****, that he's even interested in that. He seems quite content to just have Magadonians adore him. He's a divider, not a uniter.

 

[jamil]

Trump is finished economicly , politicaly, personaly speaking, he's a fool. It's all his doing !!!!!!

Idunno. That's going a bit far I think. The media has made a paper mache monster out of him, but he did help provide the molding. I don't know what you mean by him being finished economically. I think he'll always be rich, at least until stake holder capitalism is fully implemented. Then the system will crush everyone who isn't towing the line.

Is he a fool? Not completely. He's foolish on some things, which I guess makes him a fool at least a little, but I think overall not. My beef with Trump is this:

1. the whole "I saved people's lives by helping deliver a vaccine in record time that turned out not to work as promised, and is actually dangerous." Trump can go **** a tree on that.
2. His strong personality could be useful, but is undermined by his ego.
3. EO's that revealed his underlying thoughts on the 2A. "We take the guns first, then due process."
4. He's not the person we need right now. He'll work as a stand-in if there's no one better. If no one better, it only demonstrates the desperation of the times we're in.

 

[jamil]

We'll see. IMO he wants to get elected more than he has a plan to do something with the office (based on anything he has articulated so far)

I think it is only a matter of time before he is forced to show his true colors and look forward to savoring what the rationalization will be when that happens

I don't think that's a fair reading of the available information. But, if you restrict the information you consume to the sources that are as pro-Trump as you are, I can see why you'd have the opinion you have.

 

[BugI02]

I've told you that Trump is not equipped to appeal to the public to get congress to do what he wants. I've also said I'm not sure DeSantis has the chops either. That remains unproven. Trump's deficiency in that regard IS proven. He can't help himself. He's simply divisive. Maybe we needed that in 2016. Gotta give him props for showing people how to fight. I think his usefulness has been spent.

But back to your thoughts on policy. It's not the policy that sells the person. It's the person who sells the policy. Trump can sell it to the people Trump appeals to, and only them. The media makes straw monsters of the people trying to sell AF policies. Kinda like what you try to do with people who can criticize Trump. What DeSantis has to do is use the bully pulpit to articulate what the policies actually are in a way that people see through the media ********. That's what Reagan did. Trump can't do that.

Trump's not articulate. He's too Trump-centered. His ego is too big for this job. He is too abrasive to be well liked. But he does have the charisma. Trump's personality is just big. He consumes a room. But that's not enough. He needs those other parts. DeSantis is articulate. He understands how to cut through the media ******** to articulate reality. But you HAVE to listen to him. With Reagan, people liked to hear him speak. With DeSantis it's a chore. So I think pulling the Reagan thing off will be challenging for him. I know Trump can't do it. I am not certain DeSantis can do it.

I think I should say something about that strategy. It might be the best strategy to end Cownworld. But Reagan was POTUS in an era when the fairness doctrine was still mostly practiced. They had to at least pretend to be unbiased back then. So I'm not sure the Reagan approach can be successful now because the media is so much more powerfully in control of people's thinking. It's probably the best shot, but I'm not optimistic. I desperately want a solution to end Clownworld though. And of the available choices, I want the person most equipped to do it.

So, what you're saying vis a vis DeSantis is "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American [America First candidate] who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy"

Understood

I don't know what the solution to clown world might be, as I mentioned I think Nicollo's strategy might be a necessary stopgap involving first making what is ostensibly his own party fear to cross him (and that takes a truly high percentage of the Republican Party vote and some ability to motivate at least those people to pressure their congressional representatives)

I see no other way than to demonstrably improve people's lives as job one - economy, inflation and the currency, military power and roll back globalism - and then pursue the more ideological jobs when we have some credibility. The people eroding democracy have successfully painted conservatives as the ones seeking to destroy it to a startling number of people. If we elect a president he will actually have to lead, and that is where I think DeSantis is weak. I don't think the way things get done by a member of congress actually translate into leadership ability. And before you go all DeSantis/Florida miracle remember that my own septuagenarian governor has done just as well as DeSantis

 

[BugI02]

I don't think that's a fair reading of the available information. [One would think corroboration might go HERE] But, if you restrict the information you consume to the sources that are as pro-Trump as you are, I can see why you'd have the opinion you have.

Perhaps you would be more convincing if you actually cited examples where DeSantis has articulated a broader plan for the direction the US will take under his administration (America First, overtly asserted , would be nice) rather than simply turning it into a dis on my supposed biases - a strategy that I'm sure scratches an itch for you but doesn't exactly prop up your own mask of cool rationality on these issues

I get the Alinsky #5 and #13 thing, but mind #7 and #12

 

[jamil]

So, what you're saying vis a vis DeSantis is "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American [America First candidate] who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy"

Understood

Apparently not.

I don't know what the solution to clown world might be, as I mentioned I think Nicollo's strategy might be a necessary stopgap involving first making what is ostensibly his own party fear to cross him (and that takes a truly high percentage of the Republican Party vote and some ability to motivate at least those people to pressure their congressional representatives)

Then that's not actually Reaganesque. Reagan was an idealist. Not a Machiavellian. it's probably gonna take some political treachery to end Clownworld. The hard part might not even be draining the swamp. I think ESG poses an even greater challenge. Government is limited in what it can do constitutionally.

I see no other way than to demonstrably improve people's lives as job one - economy, inflation and the currency, military power and roll back globalism - and then pursue the more ideological jobs when we have some credibility. The people eroding democracy have successfully painted conservatives as the ones seeking to destroy it to a startling number of people. If we elect a president he will actually have to lead, and that is where I think DeSantis is weak. I don't think the way things get done by a member of congress actually translate into leadership ability. And before you go all DeSantis/Florida miracle remember that my own septuagenarian governor has done just as well as DeSantis

I agree with all the highlighted. We can disagree about who is best to lead. That DeSantis is weak is your opinion. I think the leadership he showed in FL is mostly the kind of leadership we need at the national level, except DeSantis would be better suited if he could learn to stay out of stupid entanglements like Disney. That's turned into a cluster**** for him. He should just close that thread off.

Several governors have been successful of red states. DeSantis turned a purple state into solid red. And he did it by doing a lot of what you said was needed. At the state level, when you improve people's lives, they want to live in that state. Right now, people are fleeing blue states. And FL is the top destination. At least a little because of the weather. But also because of the other things accomplished. And this is the state where hanging chads once almost determined the election.

I would not call what was accomplished a miracle. I would call that good leadership. I just wish DeSantis had charisma. Not sure he can be successful on the national stage without it. He's a dull boy.

 

[jamil]

Perhaps you would be more convincing if you actually cited examples where DeSantis has articulated a broader plan for the direction the US will take under his administration (America First, overtly asserted , would be nice) rather than simply turning it into a dis on my supposed biases - a strategy that I'm sure scratches an itch for you but doesn't exactly prop up your own mask of cool rationality on these issues

I get the Alinsky #5 and #13 thing, but mind #7 and #12

Maybe if you could watch some videos rather than relying on information from sources that push Trump you might have seen it. KG1 has posted a lot of it. You be like

 

[KG1]

We'll see. IMO he wants to get elected more than he has a plan to do something with the office (based on anything he has articulated so far)

I think it is only a matter of time before he is forced to show his true colors and look forward to savoring what the rationalization will be when that happens

If he were to do so like you speculate, then I would not be one to try and rationalize it. Now in that same vein if he doesnt can I count on you to be honest and admit that your speculation was off the mark?

Speculation is an INGO tradition We all do it. So I'm not trying to suggest that I'm better than you when it comes to that. I'll admit that I do it sometimes as well. All of our individual speculations though are the way each of us sees it and is subjectable to being influenced by personal bias.

 

[KG1]

Then why were you so eager to post something that you thought refuted what I said? Did you discover Hitchens only now? Why is it only after reading the context and discovering you actually helped my claim rather than refute it, that you are no longer eager to post evidence against it? Is it because you've only found support for my claim. Do you still cling to the belief, especially after "Magadonia", that Trump can unite people under AF?

He can sell it to the people who already agree with him. I don't think he has a chance to sell it to anyone else. And it doesn't look to me that with his "Magadonia" ****, that he's even interested in that. He seems quite content to just have Magadonians adore him. He's a divider, not a uniter.

Trump's newly labeled "MAGADIONIANS" sounds a bit cult like. Like you said I think that nonsense may appeal to his own ardent followers, and they may actually like being referred to as such.

I agree though outside of that it looks silly and would'nt tend to appeal to anyone else to make them want to join the "MAGADONIONS!" I think it's just more fodder for the left to mock.

 

[KG1]

Just to be clear if DeSantis were to give his supporters a nickname like that then I would call it silliness as well. Maybe he has but I haven't seen it. DeSantis just isn't the nickname type even when referring to his opponents. He thinks the practice is juvenile and I agree.

 

[KG1]

Apparently not.

Then that's not actually Reaganesque. Reagan was an idealist. Not a Machiavellian. it's probably gonna take some political treachery to end Clownworld. The hard part might not even be draining the swamp. I think ESG poses an even greater challenge. Government is limited in what it can do constitutionally.



I agree with all the highlighted. We can disagree about who is best to lead. That DeSantis is weak is your opinion. I think the leadership he showed in FL is mostly the kind of leadership we need at the national level, except DeSantis would be better suited if he could learn to stay out of stupid entanglements like Disney. That's turned into a cluster**** for him. He should just close that thread off.

Several governors have been successful of red states. DeSantis turned a purple state into solid red. And he did it by doing a lot of what you said was needed. At the state level, when you improve people's lives, they want to live in that state. Right now, people are fleeing blue states. And FL is the top destination. At least a little because of the weather. But also because of the other things accomplished. And this is the state where hanging chads once almost determined the election.

I would not call what was accomplished a miracle. I would call that good leadership. I just wish DeSantis had charisma. Not sure he can be successful on the national stage without it. He's a dull boy.

I believe DeSantis actually managed to flip districts that were once thought to be unachievable. I would contend his leadership did indeed make a difference and he did a competent job of leadership during the hurricanes as well.

 

[KG1]

Another thing I don't get is when some want DeSantis to be more Trump like AF policy wise but when he does, they call him things like a "copycat" or a "slipstreamer"

Like I said before he's not just some "Johhny come lately" on AF policies so suggesting that he's only doing it just now to get elected and he'll change afterward is kind of off base IMO.

He's got an established consistant record of supporting those policies on everything going all the way back to his stint in Congress during the Trump admin. untill the present day.

 

[KG1]

This was posted in another thread. I would challenge anyone to say or show proof that DeSantis doesn't believe in all of this just as much as Trump does. If it's worth voting for Trump on all of this, then it certainly can't honestly be said that DeSantis isn't worthy of that same consideration.

Now if everything I've been posting lately (which has been A LOT) to suggest just that isn't enough then IDK what is. I'm not trying to convince anyone to vote for him instead of Trump. That's not my intention I've just been trying to make the case that he is worthy of consideration for anyone that might want to look for a change for whatever reason.

 

[BugI02]

I would not call what was accomplished a miracle. I would call that good leadership. I just wish DeSantis had charisma. Not sure he can be successful on the national stage without it. He's a dull boy [policy wonk]

Mutatis mutandis

To me, Trump commands the room and it seems like DeSantis doesn't think he should have to

It's 'short attention span theatre', if he can't grab his audience pretty quickly he doesn't seem to realize he won't grab them at all

 

[BugI02]

Maybe if you could watch some videos rather than relying on information from sources that push Trump you might have seen it. KG1 has posted a lot of it. You be like

I don't think asking for a transcript should be disqualifying. Most videos seem more like sales pitches than informational, taking 7 minutes to say what I could skim for relevant content in 1 or 2. FACTS shouldn't need to be presented in a certain way, they're kind of stand alone (provided they're really facts)

My hatred of video presentation has been something I've had forever. I won't even watch a video if there is no other source for it most times. Not a main stream attitude but not that uncommon, either

I don't want to hear people talk

 

[BugI02]

Another thing I don't get is when some want DeSantis to be more Trump like AF policy wise but when he does, they call him things like a "copycat" or a "slipstreamer"

Why is he never out in front of Trump on any issue of importantance nationally? Why can't he articulate how his priorities are different from Trump's?

My personal opinion is he doesn't want to take risks, which is a form of playing it safe not leadership

But if there isn't any actual daylight between him and Trump then I'd rather have Coke than New Coke