To Mask or Not to Mask?

[wtburnette]

We have experienced it 1st hand. We know many that tested positive but were merely set back by what they described as a serious flu. That was my experience.
I know of 1 person that passed but she was in such poor health that about anything would have taken her.
Daughters best friend was hospitalized but she is in poor shape, obese, diabetic, etc and so on. She fit all the perimeters for having a rough go of it. Hubby was not infected.
Family members and so on. So yes we know folks. But even they are over this crap.

Yes we are well over this. If you are in the red zone as to physical/medical condition then stay the **** at home.

Exactly.

 

[jamil]

Taiwan, Korea, and Japan. And it wouldn't need to be indefinitely; it would need to be with a high degree of compliance for a couple of months.

What makes you think masks are the only factor? That's a lazy answer.

I would prefer an educated populace who understand that we're wrecking our own economy by dragging this thing on. I'd much prefer people just do it because it's in everyone's best interest--including everyone annoyed by having to wear a mask.

But as a second option, I would take enforcement looking the same as with speeding tickets. Those countries are seeing spikes like we are, despite this faithful mask wearing. Granted, it's not on the same scale as ours. But there are spikes worldwide. I'm not saying masks aren't effective at slowing the spread of covid. I'm saying they won't stop it. And I'm also saying I don't think that masks alone are what is causing some of those other countries to have better outcomes than ours. There are more factors than just that, and even more factors more impacting than just that.

Oh, and were you just looking for an excuse to say "Karen"? Because that's definitely how all kinds of laws are always enforced, right?

What you said there is what people say when they're trying to be pithy and smug. If you want me to take you seriously, how about knocking that **** off?

Okay so let's talk about this "Dragging this on" bull****. So you think masks are the key to getting past covid? That, if only people wore them faithfully we'd be over this? That those pesky knuckle draggers who don't take mask wearing seriously as you do, and are the reason why we still haven't beaten this? That's the facile elitist response. But what if you're full of ****?

I'll get back to a point I made months ago. I asked what is the R0 of a population with mask wearing vs without. At that time, no one really looked at that. That's the most important thing if we're trying to decide what effect they have. If the R0 is still above 1 it's not going burn itself out. It just delays cases. Since then I've read some claims that models show that the effective R0 is less than 1 when combing limited shutdowns, social distancing, and 50% mask wearing compliance. Take the models for what they're worth. If they had **** data in, they get **** data out. Point is, it's not just mask wearing that contributes to reducing the R0. I don't think it's realistic to expect much better than 50% compliance throughout a population. And what I mean by "compliance" is effective mask wearing protocols. Wearing it dick-nose isn't all that effective.

That's not a pesky "Republican" problem regardless of what people try to say. Real ass studies consistently show that age 18-29 are the worst at all mitigations: mask wearing, social distancing, avoiding social events, avoiding restaurants and bars. They come in last in all mitigations. However I do think SD4L makes a good point that in a lot of rural counties people have given up on taking covid seriously. That's not the full story though.

Mask wearing isn't the silver bullet. And trendy progressives should probably stop being *******s about it. They're definately not gonna change any minds by being elitist **********s.

 

[alabasterjar]

I've generally tried to stay out of this discussion - I'm not one for feelings, but data. A majority of the arguments for/against come from anecdotes & feels. The science, real observable science, demonstrates over and over again that masks are not the answer. The presentation below from Tom Woods compares multiple data sets in the video below.

[video=youtube_share;mcm8Sc8f66o]http://youtu.be/mcm8Sc8f66o[/video]

 

[jamil]

I've seen with my own eyes entire towns without a single mask on going into gas stations and restaurants in Indiana, Illinois, Missouri and Iowa. It's these same non-urban areas that are spiking the worst... look at the map, the red counties are not wearing masks.

And the spike will flatten when that behavior changes... I saw the same thing in Vanderburgh county June to the first of July. First wave largely missed us, people were very complacent, then cases started spiking after Memorial day... not long afterwards instead of only 10% wearing masks, 90% were, and the curve flattened here locally.

I've seen this with my own eyes both here and elsewhere.


Nope, it's self-correcting when people know people who are gravely sick or know someone who dies. Then they know it's not a hoax and act accordingly.

The scale that we were at back in June is lower than the scale now. If it's happening on that large of a scale now, I'd think that we'd have the reaction you expect sooner? I don't think it's self-correcting. It looks to me like people in rural areas have kinda given up on taking covid all that seriously. It seems now more like the sentiment, "**** it, let 'er rip. Let it burn though and do whatever." It's not just masks. It's everything. All of it. Like I said above, if whatever mitigations we do won't get the effective R0 below 1, it'll burn through whoever it burns through eventually. And even the studies that try to estimate the effective R0 using models, say it takes all mitigations to get it < 1. Shutdowns? **** that. That "cure" is worse than the disease. The social distancing to the extent practical + mask wearing, I'm okay with. But not forever. And **** mandates.

 

[jamil]

SD4L, see? It's not that people think it's a hoax. A lot of people are just past worrying about it.

Many of us are over it. Your last paragraph is exactly correct, the vast majority are not seeing numbers of gravely sick or folks dying that are surprising to them and while they understand that we are enduring a pandemic the pandemic just has not manifested itself in a way that scares intelligent, logical, independent thinking people.

 

[JettaKnight]

SD4L, see? It's not that people think it's a hoax. A lot of people are just past worrying about it.

So, pandemic fatigue has set in.

Noted.

 

[JettaKnight]

What the point of those if it's not enforced?

I assumed a state mandate meant it was the law, as opposed to a rule or policy that a store would have.

Since all you got was a snarky answer from our member in Flavortown, I'll give you my take on it:
"Because it gets 90%+ compliance." It's mob/crowd psychology; which is highly effective.

It sets a direction, gives everyone a clear guideline to follow, and it has at the very least the appearance of doing something. And, it really cost nothing to say, "We're not wasting resources to make you do it; just be a good sport, and play along."

• Some people do it simply because it's a reasonable thing to do, and a way to slow the spread. (i.e. altruism)
• Others because the Gov. said so. (i.e. appeal from authority)
• Some because they'll get harassed by business owners if they don't. (minimize their own discomfort)
• Then there's also people who follow because of peer pressure. (not always a bad thing)
• Lastly, there's a small group who won't just because they hate authority. Whatevs, let'em pout.

Before it was, "should I wear a mask? Well that person over there is, but that person isn't... it probably is good if I wear it... but I don't want to look stupid.... I just don't know."

 

[churchmouse]

OK......Not at all being snarky in my response to JK above but I am not a good sport. Not when I see Gov. over reach on every conceivable level every day.
Masks are not an effective deterant. So WTAF as to be a good sport. Insane.

To our resident Mask guy. So what. People standing outside, driving in the car, pumping fuel alone, walking out of a store and dropping the face diaper......So what. If no one is within the social distancing area (does this actually work ) then screw wearing a mask. Walking down the street alone wearing a mask.....

Nope. We are well past this as it is not doing any good. At all.

 

[IndyDave1776]

OK......Not at all being snarky in my response to JK above but I am not a good sport. Not when I see Gov. over reach on every conceivable level every day.
Masks are not an effective deterant. So WTAF as to be a good sport. Insane.

To our resident Mask guy. So what. People standing outside, driving in the car, pumping fuel alone, walking out of a store and dropping the face diaper......So what. If no one is within the social distancing area (does this actually work ) then screw wearing a mask. Walking down the street alone wearing a mask.....

Nope. We are well past this as it is not doing any good. At all.

As a matter of respect for you I am not going to spell out How I believe people trying to impose their idea of right and proper should be dealt with. Needless to say, I am in agreement regarding the overreach.

 

[wtburnette]

As a matter of respect for you I am not going to spell out How I believe people trying to impose their idea of right and proper should be dealt with. Needless to say, I am in agreement regarding the overreach.

Amen. I find it hard to believe not everyone feels this way.

 

[CampingJosh]

What makes you think masks are the only factor? That's a lazy answer.
Those countries are seeing spikes like we are, despite this faithful mask wearing. Granted, it's not on the same scale as ours. But there are spikes worldwide. I'm not saying masks aren't effective at slowing the spread of covid. I'm saying they won't stop it. And I'm also saying I don't think that masks alone are what is causing some of those other countries to have better outcomes than ours. There are more factors than just that, and even more factors more impacting than just that.

Wearing masks is, I believe, the primary factor. That also seems to be the consensus from epidemiologists. There are other factors, sure, but it's OK to focus on the primary problem and try to correct it even if you haven't yet identified every factor.

If you want to talk about "lazy answer," why won't you name those other factors that you think are "more impacting" than a refusal by the American people to correctly wear masks? What do you think Taiwan knows that the US doesn't know? The guy heading up their coronavirus response (their former VP) was trained at Johns Hopkins, so it ought to be pretty easy for the US to find some epidemiologists with a similar background

The "spike" in cases in Taiwan is less than 0.1 case daily per 100,000 people. In South Korea, it's 0.2 per 100,000. In Japan, it's 0.8 per 100,000. In the US, it's 35.1 per 100,000. If you showed all of those spikes on a graph, only one of them would look like a spike.

Taiwan did not shut down any school, workplace, market, or public service. Authorities did not impose any kind of lockdown in any city. Public transit kept running as usual. They have required (and enforced via fines) quarantine for people who test positive and for those who have been exposed, even if they test negative. And they nearly universally wear masks correctly.

What you said there is what people say when they're trying to be pithy and smug. If you want me to take you seriously, how about knocking that **** off?

Uh... that was exactly my point. You ascribing to me the idea of "roving Karens" was you "trying to be pithy and smug." I hadn't said anything about enforcement whatsoever, just that mask mandates aren't the same thing as people actually wearing masks. And then you completely made up that I was suggesting a nonsensical form of enforcement.

As someone said, if you want me to take you seriously, how about knocking that **** off?

Okay so let's talk about this "Dragging this on" bull****. So you think masks are the key to getting past covid? That, if only people wore them faithfully we'd be over this? That those pesky knuckle draggers who don't take mask wearing seriously as you do, and are the reason why we still haven't beaten this? That's the facile elitist response. But what if you're full of ****?

I'll get back to a point I made months ago. I asked what is the R0 of a population with mask wearing vs without. At that time, no one really looked at that. That's the most important thing if we're trying to decide what effect they have. If the R0 is still above 1 it's not going burn itself out. It just delays cases. Since then I've read some claims that models show that the effective R0 is less than 1 when combing limited shutdowns, social distancing, and 50% mask wearing compliance. Take the models for what they're worth. If they had **** data in, they get **** data out. Point is, it's not just mask wearing that contributes to reducing the R0. I don't think it's realistic to expect much better than 50% compliance throughout a population. And what I mean by "compliance" is effective mask wearing protocols. Wearing it dick-nose isn't all that effective.

That's not a pesky "Republican" problem regardless of what people try to say. Real ass studies consistently show that age 18-29 are the worst at all mitigations: mask wearing, social distancing, avoiding social events, avoiding restaurants and bars. They come in last in all mitigations. However I do think SD4L makes a good point that in a lot of rural counties people have given up on taking covid seriously. That's not the full story though.

Mask wearing isn't the silver bullet. And trendy progressives should probably stop being *******s about it. They're definately not gonna change any minds by being elitist **********s.

You don't think it's realistic to expect any population to wear masks correctly at greater than about 50% rate, or you don't expect the American population to do so? Because those are very different things. And there are lots of populations where way more than 50% of the people have been in compliance for months. Try to find a recent photograph from any of my three example countries where even one person is out in public without wearing a mask.

I agree that it's important to get the R0 down below 1, which requires more than just masks. Masks are indeed not a silver bullet. But a population actually wearing masks is a factor in every one of those models that shows the R0 getting down below 1. There are several countries that are already basically past Covid, and the one thing that they all have in common is a very high rate of people actually wearing masks correctly.

 

[JettaKnight]

OK......Not at all being snarky in my response to JK above but I am not a good sport. Not when I see Gov. over reach on every conceivable level every day.
Masks are not an effective deterant. So WTAF as to be a good sport. Insane.

To our resident Mask guy. So what. People standing outside, driving in the car, pumping fuel alone, walking out of a store and dropping the face diaper......So what. If no one is within the social distancing area (does this actually work ) then screw wearing a mask. Walking down the street alone wearing a mask.....

Nope. We are well past this as it is not doing any good. At all.

No offense taken at all. But it is hard to call it an overreach when the GA gave him this specific power. We'll see if they decide to reign him in. Of course, if Biden pulls this crap, then yeah, that's a clear overreach.


People walking on the streets with a mask? I think it's weird and unnecessary, but to each their own I guess.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

SD4L, see? It's not that people think it's a hoax. A lot of people are just past worrying about it.

The several same voices on here who say they are "past worrying about it" also repeatedly voice that this thing only has a fatality rate of 0.1%, so there is a bit of "not worth worrying about it" mixed in that sentiment of being done with it.

If that rate were true, then it would mean the we are 2/3s of the way through this, that about 240 million Americans have had COVID and that we we would be very close to being done with this as well as close to herd immunity.

If the rate is more like the 0.34 to 0.5%, then that means something like five times the death is yet to come.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the current spike in cases with rising hospitalizations and death rates pretty conclusively show THIS is nowhere close to being done with us.

tl;dr: Some people might be done with it, but it's not done with us.

 

[Ark]

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the current spike in cases with rising hospitalizations and death rates pretty conclusively show THIS is nowhere close to being done with us.

It's November. It's flu season. Hospitalizations and deaths rise this time of year every year.

The only difference this year is we're mass testing so many people and using tests so absurdly over-sensitive that pretty much anyone who goes to the hospital for anything or dies of anything becomes a "covid hospitalization" or a "covid death".

Hospitals get paid a 20% Medicare/Medicaid bonus for anyone they can attach a positive covid test to. There's your explanation. This is about hospitals getting paid.

"The models" told us we'd have 2-3 million dead by now. It's not happening. We've been told "two more weeks" to a wave of millions dead for the last ten months and it never happened. It's not going to happen. Because the virus is not deadly.

https://cf5e727d-d02d-4d71-89ff-9fe...d/adf864_411c766e79174b17b8911fcae08722b1.pdf

If we counted covid deaths the way the CDC has traditionally counted flu deaths and every other pandemic death, we would have fewer than 30,000 "covid deaths". The stats are a fiction.

 

[churchmouse]

No offense taken at all. But it is hard to call it an overreach when the GA gave him this specific power. We'll see if they decide to reign him in. Of course, if Biden pulls this crap, then yeah, that's a clear overreach.


People walking on the streets with a mask? I think it's weird and unnecessary, but to each their own I guess.

The GA allowing this can be argued but not effectively.
Regardless of what SD4L says I see masks every where I go. Solo drivers in a car, windows up, mask on.....
Now not all of these folks are compromised and even if so they are rolling solo down the road. As you say to each their own but no. I am not being herded into the pen with the sheeple.........

 

[JettaKnight]

The GA allowing this can be argued but not effectively.
Regardless of what SD4L says I see masks every where I go. Solo drivers in a car, windows up, mask on.....
Now not all of these folks are compromised and even if so they are rolling solo down the road. As you say to each their own but no. I am not being herded into the pen with the sheeple.........

I'll admit I left mine on during a short drive from store A to store B... but yeah, I feel you.

 

[churchmouse]

I'll admit I left mine on during a short drive from store A to store B... but yeah, I feel you.

I would like to clarify, I may find it amusing but I will not openly mask shame. I might wonder if a man wearing the mask in a closed up car is also wearing a fresh condom. You know. Just in case.

I will wear one into a store so the employees are not put in a bad position but once in I will clear my nose and then see most all of the people doing the same but still keeping a distance. In Sams today and it was slammed busy as folks fear another lock down. 75% were somewhat masked up.

 

[JettaKnight]

I would like to clarify, I may find it amusing but I will not openly mask shame. I might wonder if a man wearing the mask in a closed up car is also wearing a fresh condom. You know. Just in case.

I will wear one into a store so the employees are not put in a bad position but once in I will clear my nose and then see most all of the people doing the same but still keeping a distance. In Sams today and it was slammed busy as folks fear another lock down. 75% were somewhat masked up.

Well, it's practical - it makes clean up easier.

 

[jamil]

So, pandemic fatigue has set in.

Noted.

That seems obvious.

 

[jamil]

Wearing masks is, I believe, the primary factor. That also seems to be the consensus from epidemiologists. There are other factors, sure, but it's OK to focus on the primary problem and try to correct it even if you haven't yet identified every factor.

If you want to talk about "lazy answer," why won't you name those other factors that you think are "more impacting" than a refusal by the American people to correctly wear masks? What do you think Taiwan knows that the US doesn't know? The guy heading up their coronavirus response (their former VP) was trained at Johns Hopkins, so it ought to be pretty easy for the US to find some epidemiologists with a similar background

The "spike" in cases in Taiwan is less than 0.1 case daily per 100,000 people. In South Korea, it's 0.2 per 100,000. In Japan, it's 0.8 per 100,000. In the US, it's 35.1 per 100,000. If you showed all of those spikes on a graph, only one of them would look like a spike.

Taiwan did not shut down any school, workplace, market, or public service. Authorities did not impose any kind of lockdown in any city. Public transit kept running as usual. They have required (and enforced via fines) quarantine for people who test positive and for those who have been exposed, even if they test negative. And they nearly universally wear masks correctly.



Uh... that was exactly my point. You ascribing to me the idea of "roving Karens" was you "trying to be pithy and smug." I hadn't said anything about enforcement whatsoever, just that mask mandates aren't the same thing as people actually wearing masks. And then you completely made up that I was suggesting a nonsensical form of enforcement.

As someone said, if you want me to take you seriously, how about knocking that **** off?



You don't think it's realistic to expect any population to wear masks correctly at greater than about 50% rate, or you don't expect the American population to do so? Because those are very different things. And there are lots of populations where way more than 50% of the people have been in compliance for months. Try to find a recent photograph from any of my three example countries where even one person is out in public without wearing a mask.

I agree that it's important to get the R0 down below 1, which requires more than just masks. Masks are indeed not a silver bullet. But a population actually wearing masks is a factor in every one of those models that shows the R0 getting down below 1. There are several countries that are already basically past Covid, and the one thing that they all have in common is a very high rate of people actually wearing masks correctly.

I’ll read the rest later but I think I have a comment on just your first sentence. Not real long after this all started “nonessential” stuff was shut down. Social distancing rules/guidelines were put in place. No large social gatherings, no restaurant/bars. No masks required. We flattened the curve. We hit the milestones. Phase after phase completed. All without masks. Then things started to spike. Then came the mask mandates. Then continued spiking despite mask mandates.

Those other countries have other mitigations they’re doing besides just requiring masks. Masks are helpful but not THE most impactful mitigation. Avoiding people is the most effective strategy. Some societies are better at such compliance than others.